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Hey guys, I'm a paintball nerd and enjoy knowing a little more about the companies that turn these damn products out. In particular, now defunct companies, small ones, or ones that are barely hanging on. Such as:
Vanguard
Infinity
FEP
WDP/APS
Regency
Machine
Tribal
ICE
Action Markers
Feel free to add to the list, I know there are plenty more.
How did they begin?
Who was involved?
Did they evolve from or into other companies?
What are they doing now?
the one part about AM that i do know was that the WGP lawsuit was not the reason they went goodbye. it was a family business and the family was having issues, and they used the WGP lawsuit to declare themselves over. it was the popular thing to say because of AKA and AGD.
Wdp is a bit different then the rest of those companies made a much larger mark on the sport at least the way I see it.
Started in 96 I think made the angel led which out of the 2 electronic markers out at that time they had the one that really set the industry standard.
Pvi is the other company that is interesting.
CCI is an interesting company though they are still around.
imped4now: Great idea to try and gather this info.
Have no idea if you would care about these companies, but I would like to add Fastech/Feral action sports technology (FAST) and Brass Eagle to that list.
I still use my F-1 Illustrator today so I have interest in knowing how things went/ended with FAST. When I say brass Eagle I mean the real Brass Eagle, Jaguars, Barracudas, Nightmares, Cobras, King Cobras, etc, not the Daisy owned, plastic, craptastic Brass Eagle. A local guy worked for them when he was living in Toronto in the late 1980's/early 1990's. Maybe I should just ask him. :-)
Regardless of the company, very interested in the history, especially as I was gone from the game for so long.
I too love the idea of this thread.
I am interested in the PGI, Airstar, War Machine progeny as well.
If I am not mistaken Vanguard was formed from the remnants of what was Lucky UK. The creed featured the AAV that lucky used to sell.
Tribal is another one that kind of confuses me. I seem to recall that they were tied to MacDev somehow. Like MD used to supply them parts or something and Tribal closed in ~99 or so and then the original cyborg was more or less a continuation of the tribal guns brought wholly under the MD umbrella. Not confident on any of that.
FEP, like Zodiac, was a Chris Cole design based company. There was some interesting stuff around him, but I'm not sure about the details. From what I seem to recall, Machine got it's start trying to reuse parts from the sour zodiac deal. It's a Mike Spurlock company, so I'm sure there's a story.
PVI was the company behind the shoebox shocker, right?
Yes pvi was the shoebox in 1996 if I have my dates correctly. They were always somewhat inbed with smartparts as they came with an all a's barrel from the factory. Then smart parts licensed the marker and bought everything out right at some point but some of the connected guys from then would know that story far better.
I thought the spurlocks had something to do with the tribal company?
Also I know the original cyborg was made from Merlin extrusion. I always thought it was macdevs version of the aka evil m that never made it to production.
The tribal was almost an identical design to the original cyborg (not a bad thing). MacDev was one of the only companies that made parts for it... I specifically remember the red valve being a hot item. I think that Tribal was a BBT thing.
the problem with the tribals was kinda like ICD problems, bad regs, low quality seals in them etc etc.
the design was great, and actually, of the single finger triggered electros, was my favorite i've shot so far. also, single finger electros need to make a come back, they are awesome.
Thanks guys, this should be a fun thread. Yes, I know that WDP was a larger player, as was SP. But I'm sure there's some great history that's little known to us little guys. I expect Simon and Jack to drop some knowledge here.
And cockerpunk, I agree with you. I love single trigger electros. I'd love to find one for my Viking. Additionally, Nummech now makes a single trigger kit for the Axe Pro and I've been restraining myself from picking one up since they released it. The single trigger is literally the only reason I want to pick one up.
Its not hard to do a stack tubed gun. Remember, ICD was out with the B2K in 1999, pre-dating the tribals. Also, Macdev, i believe as this is an assumption with no real facta, as they took B2Ks and made private label Sonic B2Ks, they used that as a base for the Cyborgs. In 04/05 ICD was pushing the overseas cut Promasters, the B2K4 did not lend itself to any real PL tuning, and i am guessing that places like Macdev wanted more say in what, how and why on building a gun, used the overall design and made their Borg.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironyusa
So you can not truly say that tribals, though had a few advantages over ICD (cocker threads, colours and marketing) that really pushed the market for that $500 range of guns, was the sole progenitor of the platform, as Timmys stemmed from Bob Longs work with ICD.
As for the red valve. B2Ks, cockers and Tribals all could use it. I think the tribals for an aftermarket valve, you had the red valve, maybe the check it or a couple ultra rare ones. So a hot item, it was the only item they could get.
Dude, you argue a lot for no reason. The ram cartridge, the red valve from the tribal looks almost identical to the original Borg, etc. I'm not talking about stacked tubes in general. I'm talking 1 specific line.
Who is arguing? I am stating an opinion on what i think from what i have seen/read in my 20 years in paintball. Just by looks, how many bolts, rammers or other parts look identical? Besides the fact that, the red valve uses a specific stem and seal design(flat washer type seal, not a ring or oring), with the dimensions are different to fit in the different bodies. I am offering up a different theory to possibly why or where they came from. IIRC, the tribals came from Europe, not Australia.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironyusa
Most of us here have been involved in the sport 20+ years.
http://www.tribal-paintball.com/tog/....php?f-17.html
Toxic Toys was the company behind tribal. Francois Louvette supposedly produced the markers. MacDev did make sonic LPRs and valves for the tribal. Aftet being screwed over, in their side of the story, Rich or Blue supposedly were going to bring back the design but felt like the cyborg had done it. Fatangel911@hotmail.com is supposedly Francois' email... No clue if it's still active, but it was posted publicly. He also joined the site above and answered questions. To get the whole story from other perspectives HaveBlue would be a contact I'd reach out to and I've already reached out to "shifty" on MCB because it is rumored he was involved with the business side of tribal.
Lets see.
I know a good chunk on the FEP/Zodiac stuff, knowing Andy Erik and Chris, but only at the point after the break up. Andy can best tell what happened during the mess, if we want to be historically accurate. The phase from the ZR-1 to the Machine I have some experience with. I even got a look at the last Vapor before it was announced because Spurlock asked J&M to make the body for him, and now he wants to get my sales guy to work for him - though he owes my sales guy a few guns.
The PVI story is fun. I had a Golden Warrior 9000 for a bit - the board was bad though.
And I know some of the Vanguard story, since I worked with J&M initially. PeeGee would also know a good chunk more, he did a lot of the design. I even had dinner a few times with the guy who put the $2M into it.
The basic PVI bit:
SP had been working with PVI to make the Max Flow regs. In their marketing promotions for the max flow they said "Designed by Nasa Engineers" - which is right, PVI did work for them. After that PVI either had an idea for an electro gun, or SP asked them to design one. SP didn't know how to do it either way. So PVI designed the Shocker. Then SP decided to make it themselves. And had filed a patent. Of course, since they were patent attorneys. So PVI took their design, added a lot of kinda fun electronics, like the screen and the break beam sensor in the front, and tried to get onto the market. SPI both tried to shut them down by strong arming their distributors and also with the patent. Somewhere in there I was sent one, and the board, a stacked arrangement with three parts, was shorted out. A small patent battle happened, and that is where we get the bit about them not having the ability to design the Shocker on their own, so the shocker designer had his name on it. PVI went to sell the remaining guns and their portion of the patent. I didn't have the $100k they wanted, but WDP had IIRC. So....that patent was the basis for the SP electronics patent. So when they used it for that, WDP had bought into it. Talk about missing an opportunity to get into that patent ownership.
That was in the late 90's that the patent and guns were up for sale, off the top of my head?
He had them produced in Poland if I remember correctly, or at least had them machined there. And he was supposedly quite the salesman. Later he was behind the 3A air tanks, setup under a company under his wife's name. They featured anime girls on them for the most part.Quote:
Francois Louvette supposedly produced the markers.
Got this from Shifty on MCB this morning:
That's Francois company.Quote:
LES Industries (joint venture joker & tribal fell under this company)
--> Diamond Labs (Jokers)
--> Toxic Toys (Tribals) '96-'98
cant remember name (Urban)
Boo-Yah (e-frames)
Mako (e-frames)
3A (barrels and tanks) '03-'05
Ah, yes, Diamond Labs also!
I do believe that between SP & PVI, that they(SP) had put an order in to PVI for a stupid level of guns with a quick turnaround, like 10k guns in 3 months. Which PVI could not fill. Which SP knew would break their contract. Because PVI filed bankruptcy or became insolvent, SP bought them out of all the rights, parts or something to that effect, thus starting the SP shocker. Then PVI sought to fight back with the Cyber9000 with enough changes to try and be better but then closed up.
Well since i am not officially affiliated with any company, i do tend to think i have to prove myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironyusa
What you stated here, actually disproves what you said earlier. You stated the ram cartridges where the same. But now the LPR and valve were designed by MD. And again MacDev made valves and LPRs for cockers, Bushmasters and tribals. So again, not starting a arguement, just stating what i know specifically on the topic. MacDevs involvement with ICD and the B2Ks came in 2001/2002 when ICD had introduced their LCD series.
Learn information. Share information. Not a debate page
I would love to read that contract, seems friggin weird to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobody
gonna be hard with nobody if you say word one bad about an ICD gun or AGD gun. or even compare another gun to them in any wayQuote:
Originally Posted by ironyusa
Really? Can you leave your ego out of anything?Quote:
Originally Posted by cockerpunk
edit do you want me to say that mags are heavy, out dated in design, and though the performance keeps it very competitive, that the overall design needs a 30 year overhual? How about ICD, really lost more people with the PRP release and not following it up, than they had before? Or how in t years, no real effort was done to the overall design of the B2K through to the B2K4 (5 years and only cosmetic changes), nor addressing the chief complaints of shitty regs, horrid harness design and ergonomics, till the PM? Or i know, how the FS was a great design, yet they nearly changed it every year, with no parts interchanging and some guns, namely the FSP, being a bastard child design that was dropped as soon as it was introduced?
Unlike you, as much as i love some guns, i am not blind to their faults. I do not drink the koolaid. So go fish...
Like i said. I heard that. Whether it is true, whether i am even getting the fact vs rumor straight, i do not know. But IMO, that is something that SP could have done and because the internet was only nascent back then, that kind of information of how or why PVI ceased so shortly after the Cyber9000 release is speculation. I do know people have tried to contact PVI and failed and SP presumably has those kinds of skeletons buried deep.Quote:
Originally Posted by PBSteve
Josh, when you say Andy, Eric and Chris with zodiac... I didn't realize Andy or Eric we're part of zodiac. Maybe I read that wrong.
Maybe 2 years ago I heard that Glen from infinity and some other guys (from hybrid?) had some rights or something for a Chris Cole design. No clue if any of that's true, but any clue how hybrid, Chris and Glen would possibly be tied in? I seem to recall it also being associated with Trauma or a guy named Corey who may have been with FEP.
Also, don't you know the guys that were Vanguard in the UK? They're the remnants of lucky UK, right?
On tribal, I got this from someone on MCB:
-Doesn't make it true, but it's not my word.Quote:
When francis left it went under , Macdev was getting into parts and made stuff for tribal like regulators.
So they went ahead and took the designs and tweaked them then the cyborg came out.
There were no patents so it was legit
Erik and I weren't involved with Chris, it's just the similarities of the markers that keeps bringing that point back. Every time we'd release info on the then-FEP "Q8" marker (later Zealot) he would release similar design info on the ZR1. Not saying it was taken from us, but it sure was odd about the 3rd time that it happened.
Dave was involved with the reincarnated "FEP Sports" at this time (like 2007) along with another investor. They dropped off in 2009 and we created the TAS label and changed the marker name to differentiate it from the Quest line.
We originally intended to use several parts from the Machine Vapor in the Zealot, but getting Spurlock to supply anything was like pulling teeth, even just for prototypes. In the end I made all those parts, even the stupid little injection mold detents. So that fizzled out all on its own and we intended to just make the parts ourselves even if they were physically identical to chinese ones floating around.
FWIW i agree about the single trigger frames...I'd love to make more complete single trigger/frame packages for people if the cost of a whole frame wasn't so prohibitory. The AxePro's separate trigger guard is a godsend for customizing in that regard, I wish every marker made it that easy lol
It hasn't been brought up yet, but I know there have been two split off groups from Azodin. The first was Eric Wang that created the Unity Prime, which was intended to be a better, upgradeable version of the Kaos. The marker seemed to perform poorly and the upgrade kit never came out. The second was when the Azodin USA guys - Sergio Aguilar and Paul (?) - got laid off and went to form D3FY with the rebranded Rogue. I'm pretty sure they created an airsoft company at the same time and also have branched out into paint supply.
EDIT: Sergio now lists his time at D3FY ending in 2014.
Very informative so far. Keep it up.
What exactly happened to WDP/APS, and who owns the IP now?
WDP. From the UK guys when I was over last, their accountant kept on playing with money and they didn't want to go away from the 3 tube body. According to the rumors the accountant would send $1m from the bank at location A to location B, to show there was $1M there also, but had done something else with it? I guess the fees ate of a good chunk of that. If something else had happened, it might be closer to truth than some guys BS'ing. When I was doing something with J&M they got a call from the WDP guy and they were talking about starting it up again with them. I made some proposals on what we could do, but J&M fell apart about then also. They still wanted to stick to a 3 tube body IIRC. No clue on the IP.
Just for clarity Andy, didn't Chris work with you guys on the original FEQ Quest project? And then you did improvements, and Chris took the CAD and IP and ran? Or is my memory worse than I remember? And then you had to do the other bits on the Zealot to work around it? Which actually is a clever setup, having seen that CAD. :)
On that note - Spurlock did help out Chris on the Zodiac. I think PeeGee said that they just used a GI Nano Body scaled up 120% as the start to it. Chris had a hard time getting Spurlock to get part made right each time - I saw the pics and the CAD. QC was not decent on the prototypes and on the bolt tip. I helped him try and fix the ASA reg, and it was a bit too crazy tight. Designed a couple regs I would like to reproduce later. Balanced reverse moving base design in one. Would make a great LPR. I ended up redesigning his bolt tip. He wanted venturies. He took a gun shooting 295 and put his bolt in, and it shot 265. Put mine in, 335. I got a zodiac out of the deal. Decent gun.
Spurlock had been sent a bunch of solenoids and boards from Cole. Then he tried to sell the Zodiac over here without Cole's permission. Then he used the noids in the Vapor. Not sure if he used the boards also, I think not. There is Quest/Zodiac DNA in the vapor though.
WDP is a company I'd like to see make a return and I'd be fine with them sticking with the 3 tube layout....I'd like to think that extra real estate would make going hoseless a little easier. A modern (evolved) SB has been making me salivate recently.
Awesome stuff about the the Quest, Zodiac, Vapor, etc. Coming from an old school Quest lover (still have my 4B'd Quest) and a Vapor owner, it's all quite interesting. I kind of figured there was some sort of relationship there, especially with Chris and Spurlock in the picture.
The 4B'd Quest is still one of the nicest shooting spools around, IMO.
Wasn't Infinity Glen and Dave Zinkham? Pretty sure Dave was involved with the Legend.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironyusa
Vanguard, you need Paul Garry (PeeGee) for that info, but I believe basically yes, it was the Lucky UK crew. I think Simon cave over to the UK at one point to try and help them out as well. Martin Carnall was doing the machine work.
That is who did your machining for you, wasn't it Josh? Having worked for a time with Martin many many years before I personally wouldn't have used him to make a shovel, let alone a complete gun. We were truly blessed to have had Belsales as our go-to when we were setting up the Ego.
As far as I know the Greene Brothers still own all their IP through NPF (National Paintball Fields). NPF helped keep WDP afloat for some time. I really believe it was their insistence to stick with the 3 tube design together with their reluctance to adopt break beam eyes and persist with the COPS for too long that killed them. They allowed others to come into the market and take their crown.Quote:
Originally Posted by pbjosh
Anything you want to know about WDP and the Angel, just ask. We were there right from the very start.
Another company that we should have the history of is the people who made the matrix originally. Was it Airtech industries or something like that?
He's still around the Keele area iirc. Multi-talented man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Wood
In regards to the Tribal/MacDev possible connection, I stumbled across this. Note the last post:
http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/a...e-ask-one.html
wow, the MCB staff is so pathetic they changed my user text and pic to stupid stuff.
lol, what idiots.
Haha, I didn't even notice that. Sorry, not laughing at you.....
Edit, I was incorrect:IIRC, the Tribal was out at the same time, but I believe that they were done fully from blocks. IIRC the ads for the tribal line pre-dated Merlin extrusions being for sale?Quote:
Unfortunately, "paintball villain" Francois Louvett was responsible for creating these, and they were milled and assembled in Bulgaria, so there isn't a lot of information out there.
On the Vanguard side, PG and Martin ended up working with Chris and Daz, a couple local guys who had some money to burn on another project, and threw a couple million at the whole mess? I think they said $2M. Cool guys, had dinner and beers with them a few times. There was a bit more money than organization though it seems, at least at the Vanguard level, from what I inferred. The shop was setup in a section of the building C&D had to do their other businesses. I guess they blew a good chunk of cash on some Chinese bodies that were screwed up at first, then they got their own machines. There was potential there - but that last 5% that is the killer, as I and many of us know.
J&M (Jason and Martin) did it originally. We actually did pretty well, but they needed me there on site to straighten out some things, which was a bit difficult to do due to distance but also family. 3 young kids and a couple pre-teens doesn't make for a wife that likes me taking business trips, especially over seas. Working with them we did get a lot done. I think a few more weeks right before launch and we would have had the product solid on day one. They did do some things like in the middle of the run small fiddling with sizes - so parts would not always fit. It was more than a bit infuriating. On the other side, we solved some problems really fast. I know just enough machining to help, and was flexible on the design, and just ignorant enough to miss some big things. The potential was there, but they were just to far away to allow me to give them the needed feedback and oversight.Quote:
That is who did your machining for you, wasn't it Josh? Having worked for a time with Martin many many years before I personally wouldn't have used him to make a shovel, let alone a complete gun. We were truly blessed to have had Belsales as our go-to when we were setting up the Ego.
IIRC: Andy, Eric and Chris were with FEP. Correct? Andy did CAD for an update, FEP crashed, Chris took it when FEP crashed and the patent (or something fishy) and started Zodiac. So they were not involved with Zodiac, but they were involved with Chris at FEP.Quote:
Josh, when you say Andy, Eric and Chris with zodiac... I didn't realize Andy or Eric we're part of zodiac. Maybe I read that wrong.
Bringing this back up. I found post #77 particularly interesting:
http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/p...-marker-8.html
Damn, 5+ years of dev time for a blowforward
Makes me feel a little better. Not much, but a bit.