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Thread: Let's put Cockerpunk on the spot

  1. #101
    pewpewpew vijil's Avatar
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    Which is similar to how I tend to think that whether or not free will ultimately exists, within the level of reality at which we reside, it effectively does exist. I'd hold to that even if we could perfectly predict everything all the time. That's partly because I don't think libertarian free will even holds up as a coherent concept.

    But that actually doesn't make any sense, really... . Free will comes under the broader umbrella of the nature of consciousness, which also has a bunch of theories and no real consensus even on definitions let alone details.
    Last edited by vijil; 07-09-2018 at 12:14 AM.
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  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Unfated33 View Post
    I never did get the debate I wanted.
    wish you could have.

    was browsing my old collection pics, brought me here.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  3. #103
    Insider Unfated33's Avatar
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    In going back to re-read the thread, it was much better than I gave it credit for at the time. I do wish I played more paintball today. I also know that there's a pretty good chance that if I did, I would take the Azodin. I would have more fun, I'd have something likely no one else is going to take on the field, it is stupid light and easy to swing around, and the sound is distinct. There was a moment, around maybe 2015, when I thought about selling it. I have no idea what I was thinking - it has a value far higher than its price.

    Also, it still isn't cool to anyone else.

    (That all said, I so wonder if my feelings would be different if the Eclipse Emek had been the hot industry standard mech gun 10 years ago. I think they would, but no way to know.)

  4. #104
    its interesting, the comparison to hipsters has been made about this phenomena that i enjoy, but being a hipster is about doing something that later will be called cool, before it was cool. the purpose is to make it cool. the difference between what i was doing here, is to bring up the anti-cool in order to bring down the hierarchy. not build a new one. its to show the foolishness in the hierarchy to start with.

    i finally actually found a term for it, its called culture jamming, and it describes ALOT of what i do. like a scary amount. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_jamming

    its also why i do not get a long with many people online, because i continue to not respect the hierarchy of conversations.
    Last edited by cockerpunk; 08-09-2019 at 03:54 PM.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  5. #105
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    I have gotten a lot of mileage out of this set of heuristics recently:

    https://www.gwern.net/docs/xrisks/1985-hofstadter

    You can kind of construct reward matrices for (Defect | Cooperate) is a cultural context. In reality, it's many such matrices with multiple dimensions of reward!

    You are choosing to defect in many cases - you have an identity as a cultural defector. It seems to me that defecting from a few social conventions (e.g. religion, monogamy) probably changes your bayesian prior that "culture is wise". Personally, I can feel myself being increasingly a cultural co-operator. (I am not making a value judgement about either stance, just saying that the iterated game seems likely to be extremizing, longitudinally) In that, hey, this 9-5 job and a wife and a kid and a Honda Pilot, I get a lot of joy out of it - arguably more than in my younger, more individualistic and striving days.

    Maybe the question I have about your premise is actually: are you rejecting the incumbent culture in a fundamentally local way, or do you actually care about the proselytizing to "bring it down". I grant you that increased defectating might have a "creeping normality" effect for many of these decisions, but mentally I expected that you mostly just don't care what other people think (possibly because most other people are super dumb when in comes right down to it.)
    Last edited by Lurker27; 08-11-2019 at 03:48 PM. Reason: will find a better troll
    "So you've done this before?"
    "Oh, hell no. But I think it's gonna work."

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Lurker27 View Post
    I have gotten a lot of mileage out of this set of heuristics recently:

    https://www.gwern.net/docs/xrisks/1985-hofstadter

    You can kind of construct reward matrices for (Defect | Cooperate) is a cultural context. In reality, it's many such matrices with multiple dimensions of reward!

    You are choosing to defect in many cases - you have an identity as a cultural defector. It seems to me that defecting from a few social conventions (e.g. religion, monogamy) probably changes your bayesian prior that "culture is wise". Personally, I can feel myself being increasingly a cultural co-operator. (I am not making a value judgement about either stance, just saying that the iterated game seems likely to be extremizing, longitudinally) In that, hey, this 9-5 job and a wife and a kid and a Honda Pilot, I get a lot of joy out of it - arguably more than in my younger, more individualistic and striving days.

    Maybe the question I have about your premise is actually: are you rejecting the incumbent culture in a fundamentally local way, or do you actually care about the proselytizing to "bring it down". I grant you that increased defectating might have a "creeping normality" effect for many of these decisions, but mentally I expected that you mostly just don't care what other people think (possibly because most other people are super dumb when in comes right down to it.)
    i think the part about culture jamming that appeals to me is the statements about taking down culture without forming a new culture is through aggression, confrontation and militant non-hierarchical memberships. ie, dont form your own new cool kids club ... dissolve the exclusionary traits of clubs. building community through non-conformity rather than through conformity. ive always loved the whole "i wouldnt be a part of a social club that would let me in" and culture jamming organizations often have the tag line "you might be a member of our club and not even know it" again, breaking down exclusion and in-out grouping, but still building community, community that isn't based on rule or conformity. in the burning community the common greeting is "fuck your burn" often said while smiling and embracing but also aggressively as in "no go fuck yourself and take your burn with you"

    to answer your question, i think in my younger years, it was more of the not caring what others thought. i was gonna do my own thing regardless.

    now, as i begin to see the assumptions that our world is built on, and the problems those assumptions were meant to solve, and how badly they are doing it for vast arrays of the population, i think im getting more into actually preaching. ive always disagreed with the accusation im a troll too. because to me, trolling is done as a joke, someone pretending, in order to provoke a fight. i provoke the fight, i but im not bullshiting or pretending. thats the culture jam. confront, aggressively and confidently, have the fight, start the fight. get people thinking, get people talking. see what happens. jam up there culture, see what happens. confront there assumptions, see what happens.


    as to the whole draw of the normal ... i get it. i go to lunch with my boomer coworkers at chilies ... the entirety of US mainstream culture is built on making older, white, straight, family men, comfortable. thats the entire purpose, and like all true american pursuits (read: capitalism), we are EXCEEDINGLY good at it.

    but is that all you really want to be and do? is it really?

    or is it just easier?

    i certainly know what being on the outside means. being different. disagreeing with everyone regardless of group affiliation. but i dont like the feeling of being in the in-group. i dont want to be a part of a social club that would take me. i think people really only understand me when they figure out that honestly, agreeing with me is not a prerequisite for my friendship and that aggressive confrontation is not a sign of dislike. disagreement isn't a flaw, its a feature. community through non-conformity.
    Last edited by cockerpunk; 08-11-2019 at 10:58 PM.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  7. #107
    Gordo, you do realize that your eschewing of "labels" or "culture jamming" is essentially the same thing that generations upon generations have been doing. Ebb when the rest of the world flows, and then flow when they come back to ebb. And to put a label on it ,which means nothing, is exactly how counter-culture becomes absorbed into what is the culture. All those weekend warrior biker dads, that you despised. That is from capitalism as well as the culture accepting the practice of people enjoying the freedom of the road on a motorcycle. Call it part of thr PG rated "bad boy hog rider" or "biker sheik". The same thing is happening to tattoos. Tattoos were looked upon with disdain in society. Yet the more prevalence and acceptance in society, the more soccer moms have visable tats or stay at home dads have sleeves.

    Society has always absorbed all acts, whether they become culture. And through the disillusionment of the masses starts the next phase(grunge music was the opposite of hair metal) of an ideal, it, especially now, is to what capitalism can then suck dry, or their pound of flesh. This is nothing new, and for someone who goes by the beat of their own drum, are falling into the normal circle of labels.

    Now, you are a troll for exactly the reasons why you say you are not. You make inflammatory statements, trying to make others believe what you have to either get a rise out of people or "i provoke the fight". It is one thing to come in question a thing, enter into a discussion and try to either get the correct answer or to prove your assumptions are correct, in most cases(barring opinion, OT, and the like). To kick the bee's nest just because is why you are the most hated troll in paintball. You can be totally right onna subject, but the manner in which you present it is so destructive, that no one cares that you are right.

    Case in point. You say in paintball, all you need is an Azodin blowback to play a good game of paintball and not be totally outclassed. Its very true. That gun is light years ahead of what most veteran players statted with and is very competitive with many other guns that cost much more. Yet, you go into a forum, a forum that may be biased on a certain gun brand, say that, trash the gun, trash the people and start a flame war over it, cause you wish to provoke a fight. That is why you could fix everything wrong in paintball, yet no one will ever listen to a thing you have to say. Again, its called tact.

    And to preach to people? Sorry, i find that laughable concept for you. Oh you certainly can talk down to people, but yet you wish to be in a group, be part of the social norm. I can understand that, but you have to realize that the need for acceptance in a group, is to contribute to that social structure. No one wishes to at odds with anyone. Sure, disagreements can and will happen. Been their, done that. Seen that with "friends for years" that just turned on me.

    So, try not to analyze every little aspect. Ignorance is bliss, in society. Cause the smartest, most intelligent people aren't always the ones that people listen too.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    Gordo, you do realize that your eschewing of "labels" or "culture jamming" is essentially the same thing that generations upon generations have been doing. Ebb when the rest of the world flows, and then flow when they come back to ebb. And to put a label on it ,which means nothing, is exactly how counter-culture becomes absorbed into what is the culture. All those weekend warrior biker dads, that you despised. That is from capitalism as well as the culture accepting the practice of people enjoying the freedom of the road on a motorcycle. Call it part of thr PG rated "bad boy hog rider" or "biker sheik". The same thing is happening to tattoos. Tattoos were looked upon with disdain in society. Yet the more prevalence and acceptance in society, the more soccer moms have visable tats or stay at home dads have sleeves.

    Society has always absorbed all acts, whether they become culture. And through the disillusionment of the masses starts the next phase(grunge music was the opposite of hair metal) of an ideal, it, especially now, is to what capitalism can then suck dry, or their pound of flesh. This is nothing new, and for someone who goes by the beat of their own drum, are falling into the normal circle of labels.

    Now, you are a troll for exactly the reasons why you say you are not. You make inflammatory statements, trying to make others believe what you have to either get a rise out of people or "i provoke the fight". It is one thing to come in question a thing, enter into a discussion and try to either get the correct answer or to prove your assumptions are correct, in most cases(barring opinion, OT, and the like). To kick the bee's nest just because is why you are the most hated troll in paintball. You can be totally right onna subject, but the manner in which you present it is so destructive, that no one cares that you are right.

    Case in point. You say in paintball, all you need is an Azodin blowback to play a good game of paintball and not be totally outclassed. Its very true. That gun is light years ahead of what most veteran players statted with and is very competitive with many other guns that cost much more. Yet, you go into a forum, a forum that may be biased on a certain gun brand, say that, trash the gun, trash the people and start a flame war over it, cause you wish to provoke a fight. That is why you could fix everything wrong in paintball, yet no one will ever listen to a thing you have to say. Again, its called tact.

    And to preach to people? Sorry, i find that laughable concept for you. Oh you certainly can talk down to people, but yet you wish to be in a group, be part of the social norm. I can understand that, but you have to realize that the need for acceptance in a group, is to contribute to that social structure. No one wishes to at odds with anyone. Sure, disagreements can and will happen. Been their, done that. Seen that with "friends for years" that just turned on me.

    So, try not to analyze every little aspect. Ignorance is bliss, in society. Cause the smartest, most intelligent people aren't always the ones that people listen too.
    culture jamming is nothing new.

    if you believe culture jamming and building counter culture is the same thing you've missed the point.

    im sorry nobody, but automags are no longer amazing guns. its just that simple. i love em too. but they are now outclassed and have been for a long time. most automag owners and shooters know this. its ok to just like something, and not need objective reasons to do so.
    Last edited by cockerpunk; 08-12-2019 at 10:40 AM.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    but is that all you really want to be and do? is it really?
    Curious what you mean by this. Seems like a value judgement but I don't want to incorrectly interpret.

    Short answer without #deardiary in your thread is yes. I think that the most important thing is honest evaluation of the activities and vices that make one happy, and the discarding of the remainder. I think we can both be making a perfectly rational choice.

    Is my rational choice more sociopathic, despite being "cooperative" with the dominant culture? Maybe! But, not caring about that is a fringe perk of the sociopathy
    "So you've done this before?"
    "Oh, hell no. But I think it's gonna work."

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Lurker27 View Post
    Curious what you mean by this. Seems like a value judgement but I don't want to incorrectly interpret.

    Short answer without #deardiary in your thread is yes. I think that the most important thing is honest evaluation of the activities and vices that make one happy, and the discarding of the remainder. I think we can both be making a perfectly rational choice.

    Is my rational choice more sociopathic, despite being "cooperative" with the dominant culture? Maybe! But, not caring about that is a fringe perk of the sociopathy
    my statement was my suspicion that your decision to just keep it between the lines is not a fully honest one.

    i mean, i know there are some who it is 100% there honest intentions. my brothers ex-wife is a perfect example. from when i met her in my teens to when they divorced when i was nearing 30, we never fundamentally understood one another. sure, we could be polite humans to each other, and never had any issues, everything was pleasant and normal. but i do believe (and my brother confirms) that she really, honestly, just wanted to go to work, come home, be a mother, and then play candy crush every night. thats what she wanted her life to be, nothing more, nothing less. she was 100% content to work, be a mom, and play candy crush. thats why my brother and her didn't work out.

    i dont hang out with you on a daily basis, but my read on you is that just keeping it between the lines isn't what you really want to be doing. keep in mind, im not making any value judgement either, you live your life EXACTLY the way you want to, its the only way to be happy. and if that is to keep it between the lines, then do it. be happy.

    but, i suspect that a large number of folks just fall into what is easy and comfortable, not what they truly want to do. i meet more people like this every single day. and i know a ton of folks who are pissed off as fuck 50+ year olds who wish they didn't too.

    not saying i have the answers either. the perpetual struggle in life is figuring out what makes you happy and why. it never ends, is always changing, and is always a struggle to separate what we are told will make us happy, and what truly does. there is no one answer, and anyone telling you there is, is lying, stupid, or both.

    if you didn't notice, i didn't bring up a "social conformity score" at any point because that isn't really the point.
    Last edited by cockerpunk; 08-12-2019 at 01:40 PM.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

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