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Thread: Let's put Cockerpunk on the spot

  1. #91
    Insider PBSteve's Avatar
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    True, LA doesn't really have to worry about earthquakes.
    I work for the company building the Paragon...once we figure out a name

  2. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by PBSteve View Post
    True, LA doesn't really have to worry about earthquakes.


    the narrative of the prepper is such an interesting one, but i fear talking much more about it will become personal quickly, and thats not what this thread is for. but i will throw out some red meat ... the prepper narrative is based on the notion that you are not a man, unless you can do everything yourself. thus the implication that anyone other than a prepper is dependent on the government, etc etc.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  3. #93
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    I think that's basically right.

    What's most interesting to me is that the factually correct version of conceptualizing the world, is basically trash as a personal philosophy.

    It is true that I didn't control any of the circumstance that created the person I am, but it's also true that decreasing the belief in my personal agency leads to negative outcomes.
    "So you've done this before?"
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  4. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Lurker27 View Post
    I think that's basically right.

    What's most interesting to me is that the factually correct version of conceptualizing the world, is basically trash as a personal philosophy.

    It is true that I didn't control any of the circumstance that created the person I am, but it's also true that decreasing the belief in my personal agency leads to negative outcomes.
    i don't think thats true.

    how many projects at work go like shit despite folks having far more technical knowledge than required to complete the project, just because no one knows how to actually organize the people, communicate, prioritize etc etc? i can tell you more than a few times thats happened to really good ideas around here. they died because the humans around them couldn't communicate, or organize or work together. its why when i hire folks now, i don't put nearly the weight into technical qualification as i do the persons ability to work with other humans.

    because thats the actual secret, working with other humans towards goals is what allowed humans to achieve everything we have so far. no human working alone in the hills cured small pox, or launched himself onto the moon, or mapped the human genome. if you want to play hard ball, no single human defeated an army. independence doesn't work in the army. operating a cohesive unit is always the key to human success.

    its not a choice between independence and dependence, its a choice between independence, and teamwork.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  5. #95
    to put a finer point on it, how many teams have you guys been on where one person believes they can do everyone else's job better than they can and tries to?

    how successful are those projects?
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  6. #96
    pewpewpew vijil's Avatar
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    "the prepper narrative is based on the notion that you are not a man, unless you can do everything yourself. thus the implication that anyone other than a prepper is dependent on the government, etc etc."

    There's probably some truth here, but it's a bit too much of a generalisation for me. I think we're talking about different degrees of prepping though - some amount is just good sense, while there's an extreme that things can be taken to. Likewise teamwork in society is what's led to most of our advancement (and why isolationist Wakanda on Black Panther would be so unlikely, even with the magic metal), but teamwork can be taken too far. Humans are both social and independent in different degrees, cooperative and competitive, and both have their place. Functional societies are the ones that have a good outlet for both. The 20th century shows the extreme results of ignoring either.

    re. Lurkers statement I think he was talking about something a bit different Gordon. That belief in free will/agency leads to better behaviour is pretty well established (and peer reviewed), even though we know scientifically that libertarian free will can't exist.
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  7. #97
    Insider PBSteve's Avatar
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    Bah, I don't think we really know much of anything about free will or a lack thereof, let alone the impacts of belief on the psyche. The best we've done are unenlighteningly broad brushes for a very nuanced topic.
    I work for the company building the Paragon...once we figure out a name

  8. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by vijil View Post
    "the prepper narrative is based on the notion that you are not a man, unless you can do everything yourself. thus the implication that anyone other than a prepper is dependent on the government, etc etc."

    There's probably some truth here, but it's a bit too much of a generalisation for me. I think we're talking about different degrees of prepping though - some amount is just good sense, while there's an extreme that things can be taken to. Likewise teamwork in society is what's led to most of our advancement (and why isolationist Wakanda on Black Panther would be so unlikely, even with the magic metal), but teamwork can be taken too far. Humans are both social and independent in different degrees, cooperative and competitive, and both have their place. Functional societies are the ones that have a good outlet for both. The 20th century shows the extreme results of ignoring either.

    re. Lurkers statement I think he was talking about something a bit different Gordon. That belief in free will/agency leads to better behaviour is pretty well established (and peer reviewed), even though we know scientifically that libertarian free will can't exist.
    two things:

    1. i think the term "prepper" is specifically a term for folks who are over prepared for apocalypse. folk stock piling 10s of thousands of rounds of ammunition, months of food, building fortifications, etc etc. they have in depth real plans for specific events including "the cities are overrun by hoards of government teet sucking zombies" its not for your normal folks who bought a generator so they can play candy crush when the power goes out folks.

    2. i took lurker's statement to be one of presenting that people acting independently of the system are far more productive than those who leech off the system. i proposed that this is a false dichotomy. the choice isn't between being a hermit in the woods, and being on government assistance in the cities. those arn't two ends of the same spectrum. the choice is to reject the system (prepper), or work for the system. i propose that working for the system has always and in almost every case lead humanity to better outcomes than rejecting the system. hermits don't do anything besides survive. specialization is what made(s) humans great.

    ironically of course, the cities subsidize the rural areas to the tun of 100s of millions of dollars every year, and most rural folks are more dependent on the government than most folks in the cities, but lets ignore that ....
    Last edited by cockerpunk; 07-06-2018 at 09:15 AM.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  9. #99
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    I think we can agree that someone truly determined to live "off the grid" falls far to one side of a psychological spectrum between independence and interdependence. One might characterize this politically as the spectrum between liberalism and socialism.

    I also stated that I believe "the facts" to be pushed far to the side of interdependence. Take this to mean environment accounts for a very large proportion of outcome. Furthermore, even the things that appear to be ascribable to the individual as attributes (intelligence, for instance) are just another form of environmental factor, in that they're a result of the birth-lottery.

    Reading the above graf, you may find that there's a clear schism between sentences 2 and 3. Most people will viscerally feel that at some level there has to be an emphasis on personal responsibility for outcome. But where on the spectrum should we position outselves optimally? Clearly, to your point, some degree of teamwork and empathy is required. However, I find that at least from a personal standpoint leaning too hard on a situationist construction plunges me into a nihilistic lack of agency.

    I would rather perceive my own agency as robust. I think that for most people this is a more "productive" psychological bent, within reason (and preppers have clearly exceeded that parameter). Now, we can certainly argue whether productivity is even a good metric for a life well lived, but I increasingly think of it as something of a correlate to meaning.
    "So you've done this before?"
    "Oh, hell no. But I think it's gonna work."

  10. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Lurker27 View Post
    I think we can agree that someone truly determined to live "off the grid" falls far to one side of a psychological spectrum between independence and interdependence. One might characterize this politically as the spectrum between liberalism and socialism.

    I also stated that I believe "the facts" to be pushed far to the side of interdependence. Take this to mean environment accounts for a very large proportion of outcome. Furthermore, even the things that appear to be ascribable to the individual as attributes (intelligence, for instance) are just another form of environmental factor, in that they're a result of the birth-lottery.

    Reading the above graf, you may find that there's a clear schism between sentences 2 and 3. Most people will viscerally feel that at some level there has to be an emphasis on personal responsibility for outcome. But where on the spectrum should we position outselves optimally? Clearly, to your point, some degree of teamwork and empathy is required. However, I find that at least from a personal standpoint leaning too hard on a situationist construction plunges me into a nihilistic lack of agency.

    I would rather perceive my own agency as robust. I think that for most people this is a more "productive" psychological bent, within reason (and preppers have clearly exceeded that parameter). Now, we can certainly argue whether productivity is even a good metric for a life well lived, but I increasingly think of it as something of a correlate to meaning.
    i understand that feeling. i really do. if you can accurately predict to above 75% confidence all sorts of metrics based only on the economic level of your parents, and your zip code (and you can), than what is the point of trying?

    well, because if you don't try, then your done anyway. the metrics are based on everyone trying there best, the two ends of the normal distribution are for special people on both sides, one side being the "gave up at life" position.

    it does link back to free will. i think anyone with a reasonably scientific mind can conclude that there is no free will. at the same time, there is the illusion of free will, because we do not know the governing equations, and the initial conditions, and thus cannot predict everything. that means as any actor in the system, the illusion of free will is equal to the conclusion that free will does exist. despite i think it being pretty clear, free will does not exist. ie, you look both ways not because looking both ways changes traffic, but because you are fated to look both ways and your decision to walk is run through your neural network. its already determined before you look if you will walk, but you, as the walker, do not know yet.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

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