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Thread: Automags

  1. #1
    Insider PBSteve's Avatar
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    Automags

    [Continued]

    Quote Originally Posted by going_home View Post
    How about talking about the reg issues on automags Steve.

    You are the 1st person I've ever heard say this.

    Be specific on what valve.
    http://www.pbreview.com/forums/archi...p/t-28089.html

    http://www.pbreview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186561

    Anyway, they often suffer from shoot-up at any considerable rate of fire. I guess I'm talking about x-valves?

    People often talk about temperature, but I'm not sure that's the entire story. There may be some heating (actually partially as a result of the convoluted flow path) but from what I see the reason for shoot-up in this regulator seems pretty straightforward.

    1.) The sensing path is extraordinarily long and constricted (the distance air has to travel from the valving point to the sensing area of the regulator). This is a direct result of design choice to give it "no shoot-down". Tank air goes through the valve, goes around and through the trigger valve, hits the chamber, goes through the reg poppet and then finally gets to the regulator piston.
    2.) The sensing area of the regulator piston is rather small (although I can't find the o-ring no. for the life of me) and the piston is very heavy, which means it responds even slower. On a side note I would be curious to see the resonant frequency of that particular mass/spring combo.

    That's pretty much it. If you want to call shoot-up a feature okay, but I would argue it's as undesirable as shootdown. I want a gun that shoots as close to 300 fps every. time. There also seem to be issues regarding input pressure sensitivity on both the x-valve and classic, in the classic it's probably in part because the piston "sees" a large amount of the input pressure, although I'm not sure it'd have that problem with a modern tank reg.

    Finally, there's really no reason any marker should need over 1k psi to operate. That just means your valving is seriously constricted. Not sure which valve this pertains to, but yuck.

    Don't mean to step on any toes, it's a fun gun to shoot. But like everything it has flaws.
    Last edited by PBSteve; 10-06-2014 at 08:22 PM.
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    Insider Dayspring's Avatar
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    An Xvalve will function correctly on 800psi - I've never put more than that into a gun EVER.

    If you chrono the gun using the X-valve chrono procedure, you won't ever shoot up during play - it'll function correctly.


    I think the Etha is probably the closest modern cousin to the Automag, same with the Freestyle - had Tom continued development and had he decided to NOT make things bulletproof.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Dayspring View Post
    An Xvalve will function correctly on 800psi - I've never put more than that into a gun EVER.

    If you chrono the gun using the X-valve chrono procedure, you won't ever shoot up during play - it'll function correctly.
    Some of my mags I will run 700-750 in and the chrono readings are quite consistent. Other than that, What that Dayspring guy said.
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    Insider PBSteve's Avatar
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    Does anyone know the oring size on the regulator piston?

  5. #5
    Lift Gamma Gain morolen's Avatar
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    As an ignorant lover of mags, this thread is relevant to my interests.
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    CAD Monkey skibbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayspring View Post

    I think the Etha is probably the closest modern cousin to the Automag, same with the Freestyle - had Tom continued development and had he decided to NOT make things bulletproof.
    I have an etha and this is definitely true. I always think of it as a regulated pneu-mag.
    The valve its slightly different since it runs around 300 psi, rather than the x-valve's 800.
    I think this is the direction any newer designed mags would go in, to take advantage of newer technology.

    I would love to shove an etha drive train in a mag style body, best of both worlds.

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    I think its a little skewed to say the xvalve runs at 800, since it has the integrated regulator bringing it down quite a bit along the way, but since that input pressure is required, I digress.

    I recall there being an MQ test bed using a ULE body and Eblade frame... don't think anything became of it or if it was only a proof of concept during MQ development.

    Is there a valid design path for the system to move forward? Removing the integrated reg from the system in favor of? Or does the entire valve/bolt drivetrain deserve to be retired in favor of something new?

    The modularity of the platform suggests to me that it would be the way to go. Resurrect the platform with a modern system. /ramble off.

  8. #8
    Insider PBSteve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skibbo View Post
    I have an etha and this is definitely true. I always think of it as a regulated pneu-mag.
    The valve its slightly different since it runs around 300 psi, rather than the x-valve's 800.
    I think this is the direction any newer designed mags would go in, to take advantage of newer technology.

    I would love to shove an etha drive train in a mag style body, best of both worlds.
    Interesting. The etha has that valve core in it that's really nothing like how a Mag functions.

    I would argue it's far closer to a Geo1, with the pneumatic sear and ISCIS shutoff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred View Post
    I think its a little skewed to say the xvalve runs at 800, since it has the integrated regulator bringing it down quite a bit along the way, but since that input pressure is required, I digress.

    I recall there being an MQ test bed using a ULE body and Eblade frame... don't think anything became of it or if it was only a proof of concept during MQ development.

    Is there a valid design path for the system to move forward? Removing the integrated reg from the system in favor of? Or does the entire valve/bolt drivetrain deserve to be retired in favor of something new?

    The modularity of the platform suggests to me that it would be the way to go. Resurrect the platform with a modern system. /ramble off.
    I definitely think it could be resurrected, and the integrated regulator is sort of essential to calling something a mag. I'd have to think about what a modern mag would look like for a bit, though.
    Ever so many citizens of this republic think they ought to believe that the Universe is a monarchy, and therefore they are always at odds with the republic. -Alan Watts

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  9. #9
    what the etha does remind me off, is an automags on/off. as i have said before, since before the geo i had been kicking around a design using the concept of automags on/off system to hold and cheat the pressures in a dump chamber. combined with a blowforward bolt, that is more or less an etha.
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  10. #10
    CAD Monkey skibbo's Avatar
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    For me it's less of the actual valve operation than the aesthetics, especially with the spring return and the single assembly drivetrain.

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