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Thread: The OT thread V1

  1. #2401
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    Well, I second using Ydna's descriptions.

    I use V2F (Vent to Fire), A2F (Add to Fire) and Shuttled (Like the Shocker/Matrix) in my internal thought process.

    What else do you guys use internally?
    Josh Coray
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  2. #2402
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    Order a Parker valve, and the components are inherent, the some total of that part. It is a total. 1 part, a valve. Nothing more or less. With various components
    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    ahh....I don't think I said anything otherwise in this though?
    .


    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    But I don't think the on/off is the gun valve, and I don't think I said it is. No more than the solenoids are what makes the marker valve what type of valve it is. They are totally independent actions but only the bolt components would cover what the valve is a mag, same as only the poppet in a cocker would define it.
    The on/off is an actuator. The tank contains the valve which is almost exclusively a poppet valve. The solenoid is itself a pilot valve. All the other components in the gun amalgamate to actuate one final valve which is the one that fires the ball. So, they're support systems and have noting to do with the air release valve's categorization.

    I agree with Ydna's technical definitions for the most part. Sure, include all the actuation stuff, but once you get to the air release valve then call it correctly. Call the axe whatever you want in front of "poppet" for the air release valve and we're good. Flow sensing poppet, direct acting poppet, etc. All good enough.


    FTR, I actually do design guns as a circuit. It helps me visualize the system as a whole better than staring at physical geometry. I think of gun dynamics very much in terms of how you'd write ladder logic. I am an industrial engineer by education and it kind of rubbed off.

  3. #2403
    Who says we should define a gun simply the air release? Why isn't it's cycling and operation more of a definition of the system?

    I like Andy's way and think Steve's answer is the best of any put forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by PBSteve View Post
    Weeeeeell I don't know about latest and greatest :P

    But yeah, I mean it's like saying a gun runs on a 9V or a LiPo or AA's. It's just one aspect of the marker but there's a difference. If we could get the market on board with characterizing the actuation/operator type along with the valve we'd really be in business. Doesn't seem so far out of the question, you already started that with the PCP.

    Morph Valve'd cocker: "hammer driven spool"
    Gen4'd cocker (superior implementation): "hammer driven poppet"
    Axe: "pressure controlled poppet"
    Matrix/shocker/clone: "ram driven spool"
    Timmy: "ram driven poppet"
    Ego: I don't want to know what Jack does with his "rammer" when he's alone

  4. #2404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    Who says we should define a gun simply the air release? Why isn't it's cycling and operation more of a definition of the system?
    That's really not my argument. If you are going to call it a spool or poppet VALVE marker, then you can only look at the geometry of one of the many valves (plural) in the pneumatic circuit. The "firing" valve has to be assumed. If you want a USP, then add all the actuation descriptors you want.

  5. #2405
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    The on/off is an actuator. The tank contains the valve which is almost exclusively a poppet valve. The solenoid is itself a pilot valve. All the other components in the gun amalgamate to actuate one final valve which is the one that fires the ball. So, they're support systems and have noting to do with the air release valve's categorization
    I got that. Page one, sentence 1. The sky is still blue, as I said before. I have not disagreed with this yet. In fact, I made your exact argument at least once if not 4 times above.

    I said, right at the front of this, to counter comments by Simon I believe, that you can't look at the sear release and on/off as a defining action of the valve type:

    You are confusing the actuator and controller with the valve. The valve is an assembly, but not the whole of the operation.

    In this case I have 20 some odd Ball valves, by Dixon, that are actuated by a Elomatic Actuator, and a Stonel Axiom controller powered by a DeviceNet system run by a PLC.

    Only the Dixon part is the valve.
    For further explanation, the Dixon valve can be changed out for a butterfly or other brand of valve. It is not defined by the actuator or related. But a rotary actuator won't work for a Globe or Gate style valve.

    The parts in total results in something like a Pressure Control Valve (PCV).

    Three levels of components.

    You have a end conglomerate - that would be the gun level
    You have the valve type - that would be globe valve in a PCV
    You have a sealing face - which could be a TPF seal

    In the end conglomerate you have a series of valves, solenoids, switches, air supply, etc. Often we have regs in there also.

    The valve type is defined - spool, globe, ball, etc.

    The seat is normally determined by the material you are transferring or controlling, metal on metal, oring, or plastic of some sort.

    ________

    Now, I see people arguing points for all three levels here and really making a mess of it. Order and walk down few thousand PSV, PCV, ESV and related valves and this would make more sense.

    The firing, or release type of valve is a certain type. Just like in a PCV - it is the TYPE of valve.

    But the PCV is not the type of valve, a PCV could be a Gate valve, or any other type of valve. It could be a poppet or a spool. The BL VCOM could be either also.

    The valve itself, at the bottom, is equal to the firing valve as we are discussing. It has a few parts, but it is of a type.

    The seal is just a spec after that. Just a type that is for that valve. It can be a few dozen different types.

    _________________________________________________

    The valve needs to have at least 2-3 parts, since as I mentioned before and lurker failed to disrupt with a poor reading of ISO specs, like in a regular valve, those 2-3 parts are the valve. Not the sealing type, but the structure or artefact in whole of that component. It is more than just a sealing face - or a ball/Butterfly/Gate valve would have an altogether different name. They are defined by the valve design. They can all use a metal on metal sealing type. Or an o-ring seal.

    You yourself described the spool valve as having a lap, a groove and a related valve body. 3 parts or at least features.

    I am saying exactly the same thing. EXCEPT, and I pointed out before, the shape of the components of the valve determine the type or class or designation of the valve, and all of those items need to be addressed as the valve in total. Not the supporting components or pilots. and not JUST the sealing type, since that can be shared by all valve types. Ball, globe, butterfly, gate, etc.

    This is not an arguable position really - this is how valves are defined.

    A ball, butterfly, gate, poppet/mushroom and spool valves are descriptive of the design and parts of the valve. In this case, the shocker is obviously a more complicated spool valve than a Mag, but both use a spool valve arrangement and components. Laps and grooves in a valve body with linear action allowing a groove to release the air. There is no ball, no butterfly, and no mushroom shaped part there.

    The Morph valve uses a Mushroom valve type - actuated on the valve stem, and moves air just like the poppet valve in a car engine. It just uses a different seal. So we have to realize it is a Poppet/Mushroom valve with a Spool style seal. Because it is more than the seal, but the shape of the part defines it.

    Clear as mud yet?

    Does it have a ball? Ball valve
    Does it have a gate? Gate valve
    Does it have a disc? Butterfly valve
    Does it have a mushroom with a stem? Poppet valve

    Valve type, then valve seal if it is atypical or special makes sense, but the valve type is just that. I can show where all of those valves have a seal that is an o-ring, and all have a seal that is a face seal in one variant or form, and they retain the name of the valve type.

    I mean, when we sell a poppet valve for a cocker, do we just sell the sealing face? Or do we sell a valve body, a valve stem, a cup seal, and maybe a spring?

    The whole of those parts is "the valve". They all kinda have to be there to make it work.

    But the rest of the parts are the supporting structure of a whole that is something other than the valve, and we (okay, maybe just I am) is/am saying let's keep with well known definitions of well known parts and well known and established structures in defining them, and to stop trying to call out a sealing surface as a valve type.

    That is like saying I have a new Chevy r19, or a Ford V6 - defining the type of car by the tires or engine, instead of saying sedan or truck. Sure, occasionally we get a Shooting Break, and maybe we have to cringe a bit at using Crossover Utility Vehicle and such, but damn man, I just can't see defining the car type by the wheels or engine, when that part can go on many different cars.
    Josh Coray
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  6. #2406
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    Wow, we're having the same argument across two separate threads. Fun.

    I got a Lego Millenium Falcon for my birthday yesterday. Really enjoying putting it together. It's not the crazy-expensive UCS Falcon, it's a much more manageable size and I'm loving building it. Amazing how therapeutic building Lego is.

  7. #2407
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    Quote Originally Posted by new ion? View Post
    Wow, we're having the same argument across two separate threads. Fun.

    I got a Lego Millenium Falcon for my birthday yesterday. Really enjoying putting it together. It's not the crazy-expensive UCS Falcon, it's a much more manageable size and I'm loving building it. Amazing how therapeutic building Lego is.
    Man, I friggin loved legos as a kid. Somewhere at my parents house I still have the complete Unitron set. Spent so much time playing with that thing, although it's too bad I took it out of the box :P

    https://www.bricklink.com/catalogLis...tString=34.312
    Ever so many citizens of this republic think they ought to believe that the Universe is a monarchy, and therefore they are always at odds with the republic. -Alan Watts

    I work for the company building the Paragon

  8. #2408
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    The Morph valve uses a Mushroom valve type - actuated on the valve stem, and moves air just like the poppet valve in a car engine. It just uses a different seal. So we have to realize it is a Poppet/Mushroom valve with a Spool style seal. Because it is more than the seal, but the shape of the part defines it.

    Does it have a mushroom with a stem? Poppet valve
    The morph doesn't have a mushroom type valve. The valves in cars are poppets because they use face seals. The shape of the valve mushroomed to very closely control the opening rate. If you put a morph valve in a vehicle valve train it'd be oxygen starved and require more lift for combustion to clear the sealing geometry. The reason you care about the seal in the 1st place is due to the design considerations.

    This is pretty easy to follow: https://www.bimba.com/Global/Library...ool-Valves.pdf

    Poppet
    A poppet is a valve component which covers an internal passage and is held in place by air
    pressure and a spring (Figure A). Pneumatic 2-Way & 3-Way valves with an internal poppet
    design require the combination of a spring & air pressure to hold the valve in the unactuated
    position. When actuated, a stem pushes the poppet away from the seat to allow air flow.
    Layman translation: The poppet is seated on a sealing face and is moved away.

    Spool
    A spool is a valve component which features seals mounted along its surface (Figure B). When the valve is actuated, the spool shifts
    causing the seals to travel along the bore, opening ports to allow air flow
    Layman translation: Seals are along the bore.

    How about another: http://www.machinedesign.com/whats-d...n-spool-valves

    The tip of the spring-loaded armature closes the outflow orifice to keep the fluid trapped behind the poppet.
    Layman translation: The seal is on the edge of the armature and seats against the oraface. Face seal.

    A spool valve features seals along its surface.
    Layman translation: ^^^ What he said.

    Hmm... maybe another industry source. https://www.slideshare.net/mhmdenab/...ntrol-46954318



    Layman translation: The fuck? They just called it a poppet VALVE? I guess the valve is defined by the seal geometry.



    Layman translation: Seals overlap with the lands? I guess the valve definition is based on the seal geometry.

    Ok, that was a mistake... http://diffley-wright.com/blog/humph...-need-to-know/

    the poppet moves away from the seat to allow for airflow.
    the spool shifts and causes seals to travel along the bores
    Poppet moves away from a seat, spools move along bores. That is wholly based on the seal position being on a land or a face.

    Again: http://www.rossasia.co.jp/singlevalv...r_Products.pdf

    Poppet surfaces face-seal against flat poppet surfaces.
    And again: http://www.grouphes.com/wc/hes/webte...D-ENG-3539.pdf

    POPPET VALVES
    Flow through a poppet valve is controlled by means of
    a ball or conical poppet being pushed against, or lifted
    clear of a seat
    Layman: This seems pretty clear.

    SLIDING SPOOL VALVES
    As their name suggests, sliding spool valves operate by
    moving a spool linearly within a closely fitting body in
    order to connect or block ports machined within the
    body
    Layman: Spool clears lands to open and close. Got it.


    A little more reading:
    https://www.festo.com/net/SupportPor...t%20valves.pdf
    http://nptel.ac.in/courses/112106175...cture%2022.pdf
    http://www.ijetae.com/files/ICADET15...ADET_15_19.pdf


    I'm super bored with this conversation I hoped wouldn't start in the first place.

  9. #2409
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBSteve View Post
    Man, I friggin loved legos as a kid. Somewhere at my parents house I still have the complete Unitron set. Spent so much time playing with that thing, although it's too bad I took it out of the box :P

    https://www.bricklink.com/catalogLis...tString=34.312
    Dude that looks amazing.

    I had the original X-wing as a kid, I played with that for like, ever.

    I'm super duper stoked on my Falcon, part way through the build and really enjoying it.

  10. #2410
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    Friggen nuts. It is a mushroom if you take off their internal balancing thingy at the back. Oh well.

    I concede your position in part because the Morph is such a bastardized application. I still have to look at the total of the valve vs the seal, but I am as done with this as anyone else.

    A question, with no rebuttal from me (I promise, just for curiosity sating):

    In the Axe, which uses a spool operation, would you then consider the action a poppet, even if the rest isn't?
    Josh Coray
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