The OT thread V1

[PBSteve]

(shakes head) I realize this is an old debate - but the seal isn't really a definition of a valve. It is the whole assembly. The basic poppet valve is the seal, the valve stem, the valve body, the actuator, etc. The action is as defining as the components, and is a valve in whole.
...

We all know what we're talking about and nobody cares.

Get off it.

[Simon]

(shakes head) I realize this is an old debate - but the seal isn't really a definition of a valve. It is the whole assembly. The basic poppet valve is the seal, the valve stem, the valve body, the actuator, etc. The action is as defining as the components, and is a valve in whole.

Same with a spool valve, normally defined as the switching valve on a hydraulic system - a center moving part, and some o-rings on a center shaft or in the body, and the shaft moves through the body to shift fluid volumes.

The Automag, in the simplicity of our two valve definitions in paintball (since a ball valve or butterfly valve really wouldn't work well), would be a spool valve, clear and simple. Or else we need to construct or adopt a different word for some silly reason that defines the same thing.

In the Automag a center shaft moves across an o-ring that is held in a valve body. The moment the shaft moves past the o-ring the fluid transfers. Spool.

Face seals, like in a poppet valve, can be used in spool valves, and O-rings can be used in the seal of a poppet - but the embodiment of the whole unit defines the total of the valve. The Axe Center piston, while using a face seal, doesn't have ony other component of a poppet valve. There is no shaft, no valve body like a poppet. Functionally, it is more like a Mag - a shaft moves in a center body, and when it does the seal opens and the fluids transfer. There is no valve stem acted on by an actuator.

When you look at a mag the system is activated by a mechanical sear releasing the bolt, at roughly the same time you shut off the air flow but that isn't what makes the gun fire and other knock off/similar designs don't even bother shutting off the air flow. It doesn't work without the mechanical component which is arguably the most important in the whole system... It's not a spool valve that makes it operate (via application or removal of gas to a surface), it's just a pin coming out of an o-ring that releases the firing gas.

I'd argue it would need to be more of a function of the spool valve to start making the gun operate/cycle that makes it a spool valve gun, not just one small part of it (such as the gas release, or the solenoid valve).

It's just a "champagne cork release" with little attention paid to the surfaces areas or applications of the gas to make it cycle.

[pbjosh]

i like that valve matched with a spring return blowforward so much, that my first gun design back in maybe 2006-8ish, i talked with ben johnson about the idea.

in function this is identical to an etha, except my design had a slotted valve feature more like a macdev spool, just to make the oring seal safer and guide the center spike.

The Shiva, circa 1996, was the same valve concept as the closed bolt Ion, though I used 2 shafts on the bolt in the valve chamber, and spring return. It was a center shaft, air cut off, with chamber pressure holding the bolt forward against a spring.

It is a good design.

[PBSteve]

https://hackaday.com/2017/08/27/3d-p...-of-extruders/

So that whole thing comes along for the ride... that's actually really cool.

[PBSteve]

When you look at a mag the system is activated by a mechanical sear releasing the bolt, at roughly the same time you shut off the air flow but that isn't what makes the gun fire and other knock off/similar designs don't even bother shutting off the air flow. It doesn't work without the mechanical component which is arguably the most important in the whole system... It's not a spool valve that makes it operate (via application or removal of gas to a surface), it's just a pin coming out of an o-ring that releases the firing gas.

I'd argue it would need to be more of a function of the spool valve to start making the gun operate/cycle that makes it a spool valve gun, not just one small part of it (such as the gas release, or the solenoid valve).

It's just a "champagne cork release" with little attention paid to the surfaces areas or applications of the gas to make it cycle.

Boom great point.

[ironyusa]

This discussion is like trying to call the operation of a circuit a diode. It's silly. You can't name a system after a single component in the system, hence looking at the final release valve and calling the gun's operation by that seal geometry.

Lets use the automag... The operation ONLY works because it's a spool. The blowforward geometry counts on an overlap in the lands for the driving motion of the bolt. This is possible because of the SPOOL VALVE geometry. So, it is functionally the most critical attribute. Since the valve profile is also altered significantly by the overlap in lands, the flow profile to the ball is governed by the final seal geometry. Again, making the spool the most critical attribute of the automag.

[pbjosh]

It's not a spool valve that makes it operate (via application or removal of gas to a surface), it's just a pin coming out of an o-ring that releases the firing gas.

I'd argue it would need to be more of a function of the spool valve to start making the gun operate/cycle that makes it a spool valve gun, not just one small part of it (such as the gas release, or the solenoid valve).

It's just a "champagne cork release" with little attention paid to the surfaces areas or applications of the gas to make it cycle.

Again, valves are the day job... Just finishing up 70 some odd pages of documentation on them today.

In a hydraulic operation, a handle pushes on a valve to make it switch. This can be just as simple as a single o-ring assembly.

The other parts, the on/off and related are clever bits, other little spools, but the valve is not defined by all the mechanical arrangments used to operate it. A poppet valve is a poppet valve whither a screw arm on a handle opens it (like on a oil pipeline poppet valve) or a pneumatic chamber does, or a lever, or a electrohydraulic system moves it back and forth. Or a hammer. It doesn't care the operator, just that an operator exists.

You are confusing the actuator and controller with the valve. The valve is an assembly, but not the whole of the operation.

In this case I have 20 some odd Ball valves, by Dixon, that are actuated by a Elomatic Actuator, and a Stonel Axiom controller powered by a DeviceNet system run by a PLC.

Only the Dixon part is the valve.

There is an Alpha Laval valve here also, Butterfly, with a separate Butterfly Valve part number, actuator, and Control Top. 3 different components.

Only one part is the valve.

In the Mag, you have the Bolt valve, and On/Off Valve, and a sear actuator. The bolt is a valve. The on/off is a valve. The sear arrangement is a coupled mechanical operator that trips one spool valve and then trips the another.

We all know what we're talking about and nobody cares.

Get off it.

In just our little world of paintball we all call it what we want, and play around with definitions. (shrugs)

In the rest of the world it is well defined and consistent. Which should be right up your alley Steve. I mean, really, no joke, no dicking you around like we like to for fun. These are well known definitions in engineering that have a place and a use and a spec.

There are ISO symbols for them even.

It makes no sense to try and re-write centuries old definitions, and try to confuse parts with operations in a complicated manner. Why you guys keep on trying to say "No, it isn't" when it clearly is, just annoys me. This is all old news. This is spec. It is defined and known before any of us were born.

We are not doing anything too radically new.

These are valves. Poppet valves have been around for centuries. Made with friggen leather connected to riveted pressure chambers before the USA had the U or the S or the A. Just changing an o-ring seal doesn't change what it is, nor does using a sear to release and open a spool valve make it anything new (or better.) Pop off tank valves have worked like a 'mag since the invention of pressure tanks and the o-ring seal is just a spool with that type of operation.

Basic definitions cover this:

"Valve Spool. The spool consists of lands and grooves. The lands block flow through the valve body. The grooves allow flow around the spool and through the valve body. "

A mag has a center shaft, the Land. The Land block air flow through the valve body (power tube). The grooves (or in this case, the flat rear end) allow air to flow around the spool body, and through the valve body.

The Mag on/off valve is also a spool. It has lands and grooves and controls that flow into the valve body. It is a separate valve.

Mechanically coupling one valve to turn off supply to a chamber and then to open the other is not what defines the valve but the control of those two valves.

Why is this hard?

[new ion?]

So that whole thing comes along for the ride... that's actually really cool.

I thought so too. It's less a 'tool change' than a CNC machine, but I figured that it'd be possible to at least take some of the concepts from CNC over to this. I may have been wrong.

As I was just taking a cursory glance into the mechanics of it all (I'm not set up in the slightest to work on something like this... yet...) I'm kind of just brainstorming.

Kind of makes sense how the guy is doing it though - yes you have issues with Z axis offsets, (nozzle height differences) but that can be done with a microswitch or something. As for the X/Y offsets, I'd have to look into it further but I feel like the tool heads could be set up in such a way so that they centre within error of the plastic shrinkage... he's looking into using a camera to detect X/Y errors with image recognition. Not saying he's wrong, but I am saying there's got to be a better way than that, if it's necessary at all.

[pbjosh]

This discussion is like trying to call the operation of a circuit a diode. It's silly. You can't name a system after a single component in the system, hence looking at the final release valve and calling the gun's operation by that seal geometry

Exactly.

[PBSteve]

The other parts, the on/off and related are clever bits, other little spools, but the valve is not defined by all the mechanical arrangments used to operate it. A poppet valve is a poppet valve whither a screw arm on a handle opens it (like on a oil pipeline poppet valve) or a pneumatic chamber does, or a lever, or a electrohydraulic system moves it back and forth. Or a hammer. It doesn't care the operator, just that an operator exists.

Spool valves have operators too, ya know.

WHY WON'T YOU THINK OF THE OPERATORS.