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Thread: The OT thread V1

  1. #2421
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBSteve View Post
    That's a pretty difficult comparison to make, since there are several things wrong with that valve (that I'd rather not go into), but it does probably have higher valving losses than it would if it were a face seal.

    Turns out if you design anything like shit it's going to act like it.
    Exactly this.


    So Jack Rice used a spool valve in a shit application and accepted the losses (several) to reduce the holding force needed for a high fidelity seal. Exactly like Steve said, if you design it like shit it's going to act like shit. The reason the morph exists in the first place is shade tree mechanics pretend to be engineers and misapply basic valving principles. If you're educated you accept the limitations of each design and work with them. If people like to remain dogmatic in some other belief then they're free to proceed without facts and try in vain to work around the limitations.

  2. #2422
    Quote Originally Posted by ironyusa View Post
    Exactly this.


    So Jack Rice used a spool valve in a shit application and accepted the losses (several) to reduce the holding force needed for a high fidelity seal. Exactly like Steve said, if you design it like shit it's going to act like shit. The reason the morph exists in the first place is shade tree mechanics pretend to be engineers and misapply basic valving principles. If you're educated you accept the limitations of each design and work with them. If people like to remain dogmatic in some other belief then they're free to proceed without facts and try in vain to work around the limitations.
    i agree completly

    my point is only that putting a morph valve in your cocker, does not make it a spool valve. its a poppet with a radial seal poorly implemented.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  3. #2423
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    the problem with arguing that the seal geometry, not the action of the valve is its defining characteristic, is that with one MINOR design change, you can make every poppet a spool, and every spool a poppet. just a 90 degree corner and a face seal, or a 90 degree corner and an oring. boom, a timmy is now a spool, and a DM is now a poppet.
    That kind of was my point. But lets look at a better example for this. Take the Flex/Etha valve:

    If you have an o-ring in the front, and it slid in the powertube to seal, that is obviously a spool.

    If you had it face seal, would that make it a poppet? (Yes, there is a point where the valve is open before the rear air supply is sealed, so the design is not perfect, but bear with me.)

    We might want to find better term for the seal and connections, because I think in lacking a mushroom valve component it isn't a poppet.

    my point is only that putting a morph valve in your cocker, does not make it a spool valve. its a poppet with a radial seal poorly implemented.
    Gordon, is that you? This is the wrong side of the argument to be on man....
    Josh Coray
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  4. #2424
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    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    i agree completly

    my point is only that putting a morph valve in your cocker, does not make it a spool valve. its a poppet with a radial seal poorly implemented.
    Then your point is factually wrong. Your cocker can't be a poppet in the first place. Your cocker can use a poppet or a spool valve to fire the ball.

  5. #2425
    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    That kind of was my point. But lets look at a better example for this. Take the Flex/Etha valve:

    If you have an o-ring in the front, and it slid in the powertube to seal, that is obviously a spool.

    If you had it face seal, would that make it a poppet? (Yes, there is a point where the valve is open before the rear air supply is sealed, so the design is not perfect, but bear with me.)

    We might want to find better term for the seal and connections, because I think in lacking a mushroom valve component it isn't a poppet.



    Gordon, is that you? This is the wrong side of the argument to be on man....
    you clearly are not understanding something, because those posts say the same thing.

    seal geometry alone is a poor method for characterizing paintball guns. because most guns you can easily change a seal from a face seal to a radial seal, and that does not actually change the way the gun works.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  6. #2426
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    We might want to find better term for the seal and connections, because I think in lacking a mushroom valve component it isn't a poppet.

    Gordon, is that you? This is the wrong side of the argument to be on man....
    Since we're all familiar with this one:


    33 Series

    The Mac 33 series is a direct solenoid operated 3-way - 8mm - poppet valve. A direct operated 3-way of this size with such high flow is unique to MAC due to patented design innovations. It features an oval armature in the solenoid, a balanced poppet and powerful return spring. These features translate into high shifting forces, fast consistent response times, high flow in a small package and long life. For information regarding certifications (such as UL, CSA, RoHS, and CE) please visit the Get Support pages on our website.
    http://www.macvalves.com/valves/3-way-valves/33-series

    I don't think it's any industry standard to require it be a "mushroom" to call it a poppet.

    Could you easily change those seals to radial seals? Definitely. That's how Parker, SMC and many others do it in some of their valves. I think MAC has some bigger valves that do it too. But then it has a different name, and the performance changes slightly.
    Last edited by PBSteve; 10-05-2017 at 03:37 PM.
    Ever so many citizens of this republic think they ought to believe that the Universe is a monarchy, and therefore they are always at odds with the republic. -Alan Watts

    I work for the company building the Paragon

  7. #2427
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    Then your point is factually wrong. Your cocker can't be a poppet in the first place. Your cocker can use a poppet or a spool valve to fire the ball.
    I think we are pretty much together on this one - the firing valve is what we are talking about when we are saying a [insert marker here] is a [Circle one Poppet / Spool ].

    Is anybody saying something else?

    you clearly are not understanding something, because those posts say the same thing.
    /Rhetoricalquestion


    I don't think it's any industry standard to require it be a "mushroom" to call it a poppet.
    :Throws Hands in air gif:
    Josh Coray
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  8. #2428
    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    I think we are pretty much together on this one - the firing valve is what we are talking about when we are saying a [insert marker here] is a [Circle one Poppet / Spool ].

    Is anybody saying something else?



    /Rhetoricalquestion




    :Throws Hands in air gif:
    the firing valves function is the determining issue, not simply the angle of the seal.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  9. #2429
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    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    the firing valves function is the determining issue, not simply the angle of the seal.
    Yes, a marker's performance and characteristics are most accurately determined on a case-by-case basis.

    As an example I would call the Paragon a spool valve. But the *ahem* soul of the marker more closely resembles what most people would consider a poppet. No doubt that combined with the spring on the valve member, it will cause immense confusion on this front. I dread having this conversation again, I'll probably try to just make a declaration and bail when it happens.
    Ever so many citizens of this republic think they ought to believe that the Universe is a monarchy, and therefore they are always at odds with the republic. -Alan Watts

    I work for the company building the Paragon

  10. #2430
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    I think we are pretty much together on this one - the firing valve is what we are talking about when we are saying a [insert marker here] is a [Circle one Poppet / Spool ].
    Yes. I also agree that defining a marker that way is dumb, but if people want to continue to use spool/ poppet then they at least need to understand what it means.

    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    the firing valves function is the determining issue, not simply the angle of the seal.
    There are quick opening spools and soft opening poppets where the performance attributes begin to overlap, but the nomenclature does not. A valve will always function within the bounds of it's geometry and seal placement or angle as you called it, defines the practical geometry limitations. Spools will ALWAYS have overlap. Poppets don't (although the stalk geometry can mimick that effect).

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