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Thread: The OT thread V1

  1. #2141
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    Sorry, had better things to do. Missed out on the fun.

    If I may:

    "the reason you think my argument is weak is that you don't have the experience, background, and know the history the way i do. you refuse to accept this as evidence, instead you take the automotive press (who are all idiots) as your racing knowledge.
    Ah, a strawman argument.



    No. The reason I feel it is weak is that all races have cars that blow up. Name one that doesn't. Please.



    The car mentioned failed and couldn't finish. The reporter didn't make that up. His intelligence only needs to be lukewarm to figure that out. You attacked ALL auto reporter's intelligence instead of actually acknowledging the content. First, in an argument of absolutes if one person has more intelligence then you, you lost your entire argument. Second, that is text book Ad Hominem Fallacy. Why use an Ad Hom?

    Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is now usually understood as a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.
    Can't rebut the content, then you insult the messanger.



    Which, uh... let me use an argument you have used before on me: If you know so much more then they do, why are you not writing auto and car magazines and making their money? Gorgon's Auto Mag. GAM. You would be rich.



    This has been pretty lame for a simple troll debate, especially a missed chance for Steve. This is a PERFECT opportunity for you to get me.

    Remember a bit ago when I said you don't trust my experience, and you said no? This is a perfect opportunity to zing ME. Really, I left it there like a friggen steak, and you just pussy foot this vegetarian gif stuff up. You really should have said, hey, Josh, you know that you not trusting Gordon on this is like me not trusting your experience with HPA and N2 shooting different. And I would say, Touche', good point. But no... I have to bring it up. Perfect counter. But then, I did accept he had more knowledge, but I wanted to know WHY he felt that way. You didn't. You just ignored it.

    I am NOT ignoring Gordon's experience nor belittling it, I am probing it for information while at the same time being skeptical because it is low information and he just piles on the fallacies, while demanding I appeal to his authority:


    __________________________________________________ _____

    Gordon, you should know that part of the reason has to do with the oil. Most cars don't have baffles and related in the oil pan, and a smaller reserve of oil. Oil helps in the cooling of the engine, and high G turns can pull the oil away from the pump, starving the engine of both lubrication and cooling. Hence the oil sump arrangement on most race cars, and performance cars like Corvettes. That is why you find 10-11 ltrs of oil in cars like Ferrari and the like.

    Again, that is what experience looks like. Knowing the WHY. And I knew that one a long time ago big guy. See, not a total idiot here either, which your point makes only if I am. Strawman. If you talked to me like I had intelligence instead of assuming I didn't we all might have gotten somewhere in this discussion.

    The production racing circuit? You basically rebuild the car between runs. That is how the Bug did good in 1999 (early GroupN racing and such). That is how stock cars did it in the 1960s. You should know that, but then, I went and read of some things those idiot reporters and those racing on the circuits said. Interesting that they knew it and you didn't.

    To repeat this: I think it would be fun to race, history says it can be done. So I have no further need to argue. This is just fun for now, while I wait for you to actually bring a point that wasn't between your ears.

    It just ends up making you look silly for just repeating a point you haven't backed up with more than your personal experience.
    Josh Coray
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  2. #2142
    you post is a list of reasons why it isn't done, because it can't be.

    race cars blow up because racing is tough. the heat generated, the conditions, the ride, etc. race cars are built to take it, they have the cooling, they have the toughness, they have the support, they have the brakes, they are designed and built to take the harsh conditions of road racing.

    street cars do not have any of these features so either

    1. you have to over engineer your street car, which means it will be slower (wont sell), harsher (wont sell), have a bunch of things that are unnessiary and thus more expensive than your competition (wont sell). basically you end up with a car that won't sell.
    2. you race without all these features, which will mean you blow up all the time.

    this is basic stuff. no amount of memes will get you out of basic product engineering. racing street cars in stock form is a losing proposition every single time its been tried, and for these exact reasons. thats why it isn't done anymore. no company wants to make such cars, no company can sell such cars, and the racing is not good either.

    i dont understand why you keep posting the poster child examples of why this kind of racing doesn't exist, as evidence that it can exist. if you really have read up on this history, then you know the reasons why this doesn't exist anymore. this isn't rocket science.
    Last edited by cockerpunk; 06-27-2017 at 11:59 AM.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  3. #2143
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    Is anyone else getting crazy weather?

    We got huge thunder/lightning storms here, torrential rain, and then sun last night/evening.

    Instead of beach volleyball I was playing mudpit volleyball...

  4. #2144
    I think the point all along is No one cares about what ford did, because the rules are dogshit. Ford decedied to put of several bad performances, which im sure made all the ford "haters" happier then a pig in shit.

    But when ford decided to actually race, everyone who was trolled got their feelings hurt. The idea to allow racers with poor finishes/race times, to then race cars with better performing specs "for a better competitive atmosphere" is fucking silly.

    Maybe youre a fan of it because its your ninche sport, and its the format you enjoy watching the most. The big picture is let them compete by building cars they want, or if you want a level playing field give them the stock dimensions and car specs, other wise everyone is racing in a grey area and to get your panties in a bunch over someone working the system is just weird to watch.
    Last edited by Matt131Steck; 06-27-2017 at 12:35 PM.

  5. #2145
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt131Steck View Post
    I think the point all along is No one cares about what ford did, because the rules are dogshit. Ford decedied to put of several bad performances, which im sure made all the ford "haters" happier then a pig in shit.

    But when ford decided to actually race, everyone who was trolled got their feelings hurt. The idea to allow racers with poor finishes/race times, to then race cars with better performing specs "for a better competitive atmosphere" is fucking silly.

    Maybe youre a fan of it because its your ninche sport, and its the format you enjoy watching the most. The big picture is let them compete by building cars they want, or if you want a level playing field give them the stock dimensions and car specs, other wise everyone is racing in a grey area and to get your panties in a bunch over someone working the system is just weird to watch.
    again, without BoP sports car racing doesn't exist. to attack the BoP system so blatantly is an attack on the sport itself. all it takes is one to break the system, and then we no longer have sports car racing.

    its happened before, it will happen again.

    the "big picture" doesn't exist for sports cars. the "big picture" is prototype racing, and only some pretty extreme companies can afford/want to do it. im all for it, giving engineers a blank sheet of paper, and a big budget and seeing how fast you can go, but thats just prototype racing then. so if you want to watch that, then watch prototype racing.
    Last edited by cockerpunk; 06-27-2017 at 01:23 PM.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  6. #2146
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    Ah, I see you are missing a point I have made before:

    I don't necessary want to see street cars compete with race cars. I don't think they should.

    I want to see production cars raced.

    It seems that, in your opinion, that shouldn't be done. Because it would be shit racing based on what real racing like BoP would be there to support.

    I don't care if it would be good racing based on your opinion of what racing should be.

    See? I just want to see it done.

    Again.

    1. you have to over engineer your street car, which means it will be slower (wont sell), harsher (wont sell), have a bunch of things that are unnessiary and thus more expensive than your competition (wont sell). basically you end up with a car that won't sell.
    Except, in the past, they DID. With 1960's tech. Again I ask, did cars get worse?

    The cars went faster, were kinda harsh, were expensive, and they SOLD. And still sell for stupid amounts. My friend in Corpus helped sell a corvette, well: http://money.cnn.com/2013/09/11/auto...ecord-auction/

    The Dodge Demon, the ZL1, Roush Mustang, Z06, Porshe GT3 RS? SOLD. Shoot, new Civic Type R? SOLD.

    Power sells. Racing cred sells. Nobody gives a flying F if they race at the levels you like to. Or the ways you think it should be. People always pay for that. Or else there would be no market for the new Ford GT to begin with.

    The average guy buying these cars doesn't care about SCCA rules, Miata or Focus class racing, and they care even less about BoP than most anybody here.

    They don't care about trying to level the playing field. That is..... that is socialist racing man! Ha!

    They want to see the one with the most bragging rights, that is ran against other similar cars that are cars they can actually BUY.

    If your comment was right, there would be no Ferrari, Aston Martin, Lamborghini, Porshe... name it. They exist because of racing cred, and the ability to buy a piece of it.

    You seem to have blinders on your narrow vision of what racing should be.

    So what if they are any of the things you state? So what if they suck how you would use them.

    They still buy those cars. Flat out inescapable FACT.

    Like somebody said, they race LAWNMOWERS man. Lawn. Mowers.

    Which results in this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFo7ztlMlmg
    Last edited by pbjosh; 06-27-2017 at 02:45 PM.
    Josh Coray
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  7. #2147
    i understand you want to see production cars raced.


    none of the cars you list were production cars when they raced, and there production versions were quire different. they were homologation specials, and as always, there is big differences between the race cars, and the production cars that were sold.

    the GT3 RS is significantly different than the GT3R race car.
    the ZL1 is significantly different than the Camero GT4.R.
    the Mustang GT4 is significantly different than any mustang.
    the new civic type R, is significantly different than the TCA/B/R civic si.
    the Ford GT racing car, is significantly different than the Ford GT street car.

    literally everything you have listed, isn't a production car once its converted into a race car. its a production based race car, as such, it has significant changes, to the oiling, cooling, brakes, wheels, tires, suspension, transmission, differential, and engine to make it more suitable for racing.

    without leveling the playing field, the accountants win, and no one races. thats why even prototype racing has rules. to keep folks from basically buying the win. if you call winning based on skilled driving, good engineering, and good strategy "socialism" and simply throwing more money at your racer than the other team "capitalist" racing, ill take the one that actually takes skill. if you dont have any rules, whoever is willing to throw more money at it than the other guy will always win. thats not racing, thats just accounting. again, once it becomes clear who is willing to do this, everyone else just quits, because why waste the money at all?
    Last edited by cockerpunk; 06-27-2017 at 03:50 PM.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  8. #2148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt131Steck View Post
    I think the point all along is No one cares


    As a side note, I rather enjoyed Josh's implementation of memes in his post.

  9. #2149
    How silly would this rule look in actual real sports?

    If the yankees were scoring too many runs part way trough the season, so MLB forced yankees to use smaller bats and gave them 2 outs a Ining istead of three, but their oppornets were still allowed the larger bat and a extra inning, lol just to make the competitive atmosphere "balanced".

    What if Chicago aftershock players were allowed to shoot 13bps instead of the 10.5 like everyone else? Just because they werent performing well?

    Its a silly concept.

  10. #2150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt131Steck View Post
    How silly would this rule look in actual real sports?

    ...

    What if Chicago aftershock players were allowed to shoot 13bps instead of the 10.5 like everyone else? Just because they werent performing well?

    Its a silly concept.
    I think BoP in paintball looks more like a ROF cap...like we already have. The idea is to equalize the equipment.

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