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Thread: The OT thread V1

  1. #2111
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    "what your failing to grasp is that as soon as your racing series becomes popular and folks want to run it, the car companies will start building to the rules."
    There isn't anything for me to fail to grasp.

    thus you get into homologation numbers, 10?, 1000?, 100,000?
    Right. So:

    When NASCAR was first formed by Bill France, Sr. in 1948 to regulate stock car racing in the U.S., there was a requirement that any car entered be made entirely of parts available to the general public through automobile dealers. Additionally, the cars had to be models that had sold more than 500 units to the public. This is referred to as "homologation". In NASCAR's early years, the cars were so "stock" that it was commonplace for the drivers to drive themselves to the competitions in the car that they were going to run in the race.
    So the 50-70s seemed to be the golden age for stock car racing. Lots of fun, low number special racing units made.

    YOU said this can't exist. But, they do, and did. Shit, they basically were most of the muscle car era. You think the 1960's made better engines and all of that compared to now?

    There is nothing else here for me to say, nor you. They exist. They have for decades, leading to some of the coolest cars of the past, worth millions now.

    Oh wait - you say that can't happen.

    While we are on the topic of Production Car times that you say can't exist:

    https://nurburgringlaptimes.com/lap-times-top-100/

    And you are saying this is BAD for consumers right?
    Last edited by pbjosh; 06-16-2017 at 04:51 PM.
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  2. #2112
    Insider PBSteve's Avatar
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    So really what you're saying is

    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    Well, that would be great.

    I mean, really. First, the cars would have to get better.
    You were wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    We will end up with beefier cars, the races will have nice engine detonations, and the customers would also get a great metric for how good their car really was, or at least we can figure out what not to buy.
    You were very wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    YOU said this can't exist. But, they do, and did. Shit, they basically were most of the muscle car era. You think the 1960's made better engines and all of that compared to now?
    And you actually had no idea what you were talking about when you got into this conversation, then proceeded to move your goal posts over the course of several pages to the point where you are now nearly on the opposite side of your original point. Can we move on now?
    I'ma make it look sexy
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  3. #2113
    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    There isn't anything for me to fail to grasp.



    Right. So:



    So the 50-70s seemed to be the golden age for stock car racing. Lots of fun, low number special racing units made.

    YOU said this can't exist. But, they do, and did. Shit, they basically were most of the muscle car era. You think the 1960's made better engines and all of that compared to now?

    There is nothing else here for me to say, nor you. They exist. They have for decades, leading to some of the coolest cars of the past, worth millions now.

    Oh wait - you say that can't happen.

    While we are on the topic of Production Car times that you say can't exist:

    https://nurburgringlaptimes.com/lap-times-top-100/

    And you are saying this is BAD for consumers right?
    and what happened to stock car racing?

    thats exactly what will happen again.

    Quote Originally Posted by PBSteve View Post
    And you actually had no idea what you were talking about when you got into this conversation, then proceeded to move your goal posts over the course of several pages to the point where you are now nearly on the opposite side of your original point. Can we move on now?
    im glad someone else pointed this out.
    "the fact is, Jack Rice and team make a paintball gun, that works, and works pretty well actually. I think that says everything that needs to be said about the state of paintball gun engineering"

  4. #2114
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    Oh, you are correct, I did come in without really looking into the subject. That should be rather obvious. I think I mentioned it also. I didn't truly grasp the difference between production based racing vs production racing.

    It should be obvious that my original comment was a Troll.

    As for moving goalposts, I simple said I wanted to see racing with production cars.

    I am not talking about racing race cars.

    If you have a 'production' class, race production cars. See the difference in the wording?

    I don't care how they compare to a race car, I care about how they compete with other production cars.

    See where I am coming from there? Quite a difference from your point.
    But the goalpost put down wasn't by me.

    This is the 'goalpost' if that helps Steve, try to keep up:

    "well you can't race cars you can actually buy, and you certainly can't race them for 6+ hours. they will explode. street cars do not make good racing cars (and vice versa)"
    Yet, this obvious idiot (myself) was able to come in here fairly ignorant of all of the racing styles and show that:

    A person can come up and race cars they actually buy
    You can race them for 6+ hours
    They won't explode
    And some street cars made good enough race cars to produce decades worth of racing


    My comment was a troll because your comment was, to be fair, shit, and this ignoramus could see it.

    In addition, I said I wanted to see production racing if it is called production racing. Which was followed by:

    his just means you will have to overpay for your street car for a bunch of shit you will never need or use. or they won't even be built at all, because if you think a BRZ is expensive now, add everything you need to track the car, and it will go up 5+ grand in price easily, and actually be slower than the current model, because it will be heavier and not produce more power.
    YET: When stock car racing was based on stock cars,

    People did pay extra for the shit.
    The cars were built
    They did track them
    The price did go up, and people paid for it.
    It was faster
    It produced more power.


    Hello Superbird. ZL Camaro, Z06 Corvette, really, the list would fill the rest of the text limit here. You should know it better than I do.

    Again, here is another point that overlaps the previous ones.

    the main problem with racing production cars is that it would be terrible racing. thats why we convert them to racing cars, before racing them.
    Yet, they weren't. History was clear on this. There were not all that terrible. It resulted in some better cars, advancements in engineering, fun limited edition cars.

    Everything you mentioned above didn't happen.

    No goalposts moved here Steve. Either a car can race in production skin or not. That is the argument. Gordon says they can't, I say they can.

    Who is right?

    I have shown that they have in the past and currently race in this format. Gordon just keep repeating they can't race. Well.

    They do. Are you saying they don't?

    _____________________________________________

    Now, if we want a serious discussion beyond the expansion of my troll:

    I believe you feel that racing production cars would result in cars that are worse than they are currently.

    With cars like the Camaro ZL1 and GTR making serious dents in the supercar lap times at the Nuremburg Ring, with a history of Stock Car racing producing the fastest cars of the 60's and 70's era racing when they were mandated to remain stock, why do you still think that having the sames rules for racing now would result in worse cars, when the evidence is clear in the past and now when the Ring is used, points to better, faster and more exciting cars?

    Please, provide evidence. Your previous comments on "They will explode" turned out to be wrong, so I think you need to bring more to the argument than that.

    And to be clear: This is about racing Production Cars against Production Cars.

    It is not about trying to make them race non-production cars, nor is it about racing cars with production skins and a million dollars of work underneath them.

    Just production on production.
    Last edited by pbjosh; 06-19-2017 at 10:03 AM.
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  5. #2115
    because making a car faster for the ring, makes it a worse car, as you know, a car goes.

    also, they do explode. i see street cars blow up on a pretty regular basis at the track. at almost every track day/night/race i've ever been to someone blows up an engine. and its usually a stock car like a vette, GTR or porsche. your claim that showroom stock proves this false, is crazy. go look at the showroom stock rule book.

    the only evidence required is to actually know something about cars, and racing. it would be easy for you to grasp these points if you didn't enter this conversation knowing almost nothing about either. meanwhile insisting you know better than 40 years of car racing history. rulebooks and racecars are the way they are, for good reasons.
    Last edited by cockerpunk; 06-19-2017 at 10:26 AM.
    "the fact is, Jack Rice and team make a paintball gun, that works, and works pretty well actually. I think that says everything that needs to be said about the state of paintball gun engineering"

  6. #2116
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    because making a car faster for the ring, makes it a worse car, as you know, a car goes.
    For a daily driver car, yes. Totally agree. For a ZL1, GTR or related? Not so much. Those result in exactly what the consumer at least thinks they want though. Just like a limited edition anything. So what if they don't measure up to your standards, the customer ends up buying it, right? Your experience not-withstanding, are people willing to buy limited edition kinda racey go-fast trackish cars?

    Yes. All of them made get sold.

    also, they do explode. i see street cars blow up on a pretty regular basis at the track. at almost every track day/night/race i've ever been to someone blows up an engine. and its usually a stock car like a vette, GTR or porsche. your claim that showroom stock proves this false, is crazy. go look at the showroom stock rule book.
    Not saying it doesn't happen. It doesn't happen ALL OF THE TIME. They WOULD explode, vs they MIGHT explode. One is an absolute, where as one is a percentage of the time.

    Shoot, race cars explode also. Case in point: http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/leadin...ans-1796198823

    Last line of the article?
    "That being said, Porsche only has one car that has not experienced any major setbacks left in the race, so who knows what will happen."
    They all do. How often they do might be interesting to track, but really we are arguing one percentage vs the other. Twice as often? 3 times?

    But if you are going to use "Explode" as your baseline, well, then we shouldn't race race cars then either. Because, hey, they break also. Looks like all of them had a problem but Porshe.

    This is a spurious argument and your point, if used on other racing formats, would say we shouldn't do those either.

    the only evidence required is to actually know something about cars, and racing. it would be easy for you to grasp these points if you didn't enter this conversation knowing almost nothing about either. meanwhile insisting you know better than 40 years of car racing history. rulebooks and racecars are the way they are, for good reasons.
    I hardly came in knowing nothing about cars. I was unfamiliar with the production class vs production stock racing. But not all of it. I know I don't know as much as you. I knew enough to realize your argument was shit. It still is. I want to know more about racing, but I am not a total idiot. I am arguing this to learn why. I totally respect your experience, but I don't respect your argument because it seems really weak and fallacious and contradicts what seems like basic logic. I am not challenging you at this point to win an internet back and forth - I found what I was looking for a while back. But I want to know why you say something that IS being raced, can't be raced.

    When I brought up production vs production racing you should have said, with all of your experience, "Oh, they have that, here are several formats of the production racing style [insert racing formats]. Did you know they have a rally division? Just replace the shocks and tires, and go at it. Stock car racing used to do that, in the 60's and 70's, but they kept on sneaking in 'Cop parts' and related. Most have faded out due to lack of interest."

    That would have done it, it makes sense, and you would have won the internets that day.

    That would have been the argument of experience.

    I ended up making that argument when you said "It can't happen. They would explode."
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  7. #2117
    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    For a daily driver car, yes. Totally agree. For a ZL1, GTR or related? Not so much. Those result in exactly what the consumer at least thinks they want though. Just like a limited edition anything. So what if they don't measure up to your standards, the customer ends up buying it, right? Your experience not-withstanding, are people willing to buy limited edition kinda racey go-fast trackish cars?

    Yes. All of them made get sold.

    thats because they remain actual cars. if race car features are added they will not be sold.

    again, history bears this out.




    Not saying it doesn't happen. It doesn't happen ALL OF THE TIME. They WOULD explode, vs they MIGHT explode. One is an absolute, where as one is a percentage of the time.

    Shoot, race cars explode also. Case in point: http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/leadin...ans-1796198823

    Last line of the article?

    They all do. How often they do might be interesting to track, but really we are arguing one percentage vs the other. Twice as often? 3 times?

    But if you are going to use "Explode" as your baseline, well, then we shouldn't race race cars then either. Because, hey, they break also. Looks like all of them had a problem but Porshe.

    This is a spurious argument and your point, if used on other racing formats, would say we shouldn't do those either.

    wow, you can google things.

    this weekend at the track i know 6 cars that blew up. all street cars. no cars modified for racing even broke down.


    I hardly came in knowing nothing about cars. I was unfamiliar with the production class vs production stock racing. But not all of it. I know I don't know as much as you. I knew enough to realize your argument was shit. It still is. I want to know more about racing, but I am not a total idiot. I am arguing this to learn why. I totally respect your experience, but I don't respect your argument because it seems really weak and fallacious and contradicts what seems like basic logic. I am not challenging you at this point to win an internet back and forth - I found what I was looking for a while back. But I want to know why you say something that IS being raced, can't be raced.

    the reason you think my argument is weak is that you don't have the experience, background, and know the history the way i do. you refuse to accept this as evidence, instead you take the automotive press (who are all idiots) as your racing knowledge.

    When I brought up production vs production racing you should have said, with all of your experience, "Oh, they have that, here are several formats of the production racing style [insert racing formats]. Did you know they have a rally division? Just replace the shocks and tires, and go at it. Stock car racing used to do that, in the 60's and 70's, but they kept on sneaking in 'Cop parts' and related. Most have faded out due to lack of interest."

    That would have done it, it makes sense, and you would have won the internets that day.

    there is no such rally division. and the 60s and 70s stock cars are a lesson in why i am right.

    That would have been the argument of experience.

    I ended up making that argument when you said "It can't happen. They would explode."
    because they do.
    "the fact is, Jack Rice and team make a paintball gun, that works, and works pretty well actually. I think that says everything that needs to be said about the state of paintball gun engineering"

  8. #2118
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    They all blow up man.

    All of them. Every race car blows up. Top Fuel might be the best at it though.
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  9. #2119
    Insider PBSteve's Avatar
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    (not mine)
    I'ma make it look sexy
    I work for the company building the Paragon...once we figure out a name

  10. #2120
    That is an awesome pic & why do tourists always turn off their brains?

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