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Thread: The OT thread V1

  1. #2671
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    Quote Originally Posted by emisnug View Post
    Much like this?

    That's cool, but way more over the top than what I saw.

  2. #2672
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    I agree, but the evolution of that design should have been... more intelligent IMO. As best I can tell there were multiple version of the on/off on the mag and none were good IMO.
    I disagree. I think they did good going into the Rt on/off - the trigger pull got crazy short and smooth, and the way the reg interacted to fill the chamber and allow for 26bps cycling with no drop off really has to be applauded. The RT valve and setup really is genius. Add to that the Lvl10 bolt work and the ROF, recharge, light trigger pull and ease on paint the design is still hard to beat. Who would want to stick their tongue in the breech of an Axe? What marker can keep up with the RT for recharge?

    The look and finish were still a bit behind, it was a retrofittable design. I hazard that if not for our favorite company to hate on suing them they could have re-packaged the entire platform in a new platform, still utilizing the main lvl10 and RT components and a new bespoke activation and had something that would be hard to catch now. It mostly is cosmetics and layout, not engineering that holds the late model Automag from being on top of the pile at the moment. As it left the market, it took cocker threads, still retro fit valves, aluminum bodies, and a high ROF with an electronics package that would work mechanical also.



    Any more foregrip and GI would sue them I think.

    Simon helped AGD out about the time, on the Emag and related evolution, which really wasn't too bad for the time, though he could detail it far better.
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  3. #2673
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    Man, that's a short BOM on the Fox. Tube for the receiver, and a frame so simple you could cast it.

    A Fox with the valve stem partially balanced to let you run a bigger valve stem and lower pressures which reducing the sear friction would be pretty cool. Probably even switch the bolt to aluminum while I'm in there.

    ...Actually since you lowered the pressure might as well use a cheapy little solenoid instead of a sear system at all, with how cheap a basic board could be.

    ...Probably easier to throw a dirt simple moving base type reg in the foregrip since you can't rightfully keep the reg in the body what with the solenoid we added.

    ...Shoot, throw a basic set of breakbeam eyes in and maybe some mass producible plastic shells just to make it look halfway modern, and you'd really be cooking. Every new player could have access to the same ramping firepower as "the pros"! It's gonna be great, guys!

    The only problem is that all these changes are so logical, every time a new gun comes out, people will say "it looks/works/shoots like a Desert Fox".
    "So you've done this before?"
    "Oh, hell no. But I think it's gonna work."

  4. #2674
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    Also, I would stick my tongue in an axe breech... with a Lurker bolt. On multiple occasions, I have held a ball halfway into the breech and cycled the bolt. It will bounce off even super fragile tournament paint.

    Asking what gun can keep up with a RT for recharge is kinda pointless to me. Requiring a high-pressure input to get a reasonable recharge, yet many other guns seem to do just fine with a much lower input. That's not impressive even a little. AKALMP was working the other direction and seemed to do pretty well for their time.
    Last edited by ironyusa; 10-24-2017 at 11:39 AM.

  5. #2675
    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    I disagree. I think they did good going into the Rt on/off - the trigger pull got crazy short and smooth, and the way the reg interacted to fill the chamber and allow for 26bps cycling with no drop off really has to be applauded. The RT valve and setup really is genius. Add to that the Lvl10 bolt work and the ROF, recharge, light trigger pull and ease on paint the design is still hard to beat. Who would want to stick their tongue in the breech of an Axe? What marker can keep up with the RT for recharge?

    The look and finish were still a bit behind, it was a retrofittable design. I hazard that if not for our favorite company to hate on suing them they could have re-packaged the entire platform in a new platform, still utilizing the main lvl10 and RT components and a new bespoke activation and had something that would be hard to catch now. It mostly is cosmetics and layout, not engineering that holds the late model Automag from being on top of the pile at the moment. As it left the market, it took cocker threads, still retro fit valves, aluminum bodies, and a high ROF with an electronics package that would work mechanical also.



    Any more foregrip and GI would sue them I think.

    Simon helped AGD out about the time, on the Emag and related evolution, which really wasn't too bad for the time, though he could detail it far better.
    wish the freestyle was better executed because all in all, i felt like that was the true elctro pneumatic mag we never saw. besides troublesome regs and some other ICD quality induced problems, the gun was very good. and it was easily the first gun to really start marketing that small and light was the future talking points and the next arms race.

    so i don't think there is some mythical "if the mag would have continued" design out there. no doubt AGD would have made a much better engineered product than ICD, but the idea of what the next mag was going to be, already exists.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  6. #2676
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    Man, that's a short BOM on the Fox. Tube for the receiver, and a frame so simple you could cast it.

    A Fox with the valve stem partially balanced to let you run a bigger valve stem and lower pressures which reducing the sear friction would be pretty cool. Probably even switch the bolt to aluminum while I'm in there.

    ...Actually since you lowered the pressure might as well use a cheapy little solenoid instead of a sear system at all, with how cheap a basic board could be.

    ...Probably easier to throw a dirt simple moving base type reg in the foregrip since you can't rightfully keep the reg in the body what with the solenoid we added.

    ...Shoot, throw a basic set of breakbeam eyes in and maybe some mass producible plastic shells just to make it look halfway modern, and you'd really be cooking. Every new player could have access to the same ramping firepower as "the pros"! It's gonna be great, guys!

    The only problem is that all these changes are so logical, every time a new gun comes out, people will say "it looks/works/shoots like a Desert Fox".
    Yeah, I think it could be done up very logically. It really is a great platform.

    But then, they went and did the FS. I remember when I first heard of it I told Rocky K to go find out about it, and he called me and said "Dude, this is so smart. You are going to wish you had thought it up! You going to kick yourself for not thinking of it."

    I agree with Gordon on the FS also:

    wish the freestyle was better executed because all in all, i felt like that was the true elctro pneumatic mag we never saw. besides troublesome regs and some other ICD quality induced problems, the gun was very good. and it was easily the first gun to really start marketing that small and light was the future talking points and the next arms race.
    Wish they would do it again, but they were not interested when we talked to them about it last year.

    so i don't think there is some mythical "if the mag would have continued" design out there. no doubt AGD would have made a much better engineered product than ICD, but the idea of what the next mag was going to be, already exists.
    The FS bolt really answers it, but I don't think AGD would have stopped completely. They had just finished up the Emag stuff when SP struck. That patent is up, so we are talking a couple decades of lost evolution. I think they would have evolved also.

    Asking what gun can keep up with a RT for recharge is kinda pointless to me. Requiring a high-pressure input to get a reasonable recharge, yet many other guns seem to do just fine with a much lower input. That's not impressive even a little. AKALMP was working the other direction and seemed to do pretty well for their time.
    The design didn't require that the RT reg needed 'full pressure' ran into it, just a 35 yo dump chamber size tuned for CO2.

    It nominally required HP because the valve it is coupled to was designed to charge to 400psi. So you want twice the operating pressure as your supply.

    The Etha and Flexvalve both run at lower pressure, and are blow forward designs. The RT reg design could be setup to run at 100, 200, 300psi, and if so, the input would best be 200, 400 or 600psi, just like any other setup. It would still out perform any reg setup we have now because of direct connection with the dump chamber.
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  7. #2677
    Quote Originally Posted by ironyusa View Post
    Jerry Dobbins was a contemporary of TK and from everything I can tell the ICD desert fox is an improvement by all accounts over the mag. The mag is not some holy grail of paintball.

    Again,

    It's easy to see what works and what doesn't with the advantage of hindsight.

    At the same time, providing fixes and having brilliant engineering doesn't always make things better. I have the classic mag to beat all classic mags, literally. Solves many of the issues with the original and later mags, no internal parts wear, fast as an RT at normal and even lower input pressures, no shootdown, can run CO2, yadda, yadda.

    And when he saw the rough prototype, Tom Kaye said (and I quote), "Why didn't I think of that?"

    Well, he didn't think of it because he had already moved on in another highly innovative direction.

    Had he stuck with the original, he would have almost certainly come up with the same thing, because it was simply the natural logical progression of his original design. That's how innovation and development works. It is easy to find and fix flaws when one has something to work from.

    But he will always have a place of highest honor in my book because he didn't improve on something else, and what he made is still impressive and still a joy to play with, flaws and all.

    And that last part is an important point. I don't play with my valve anymore because it took all the fun out of the original.

    Simply being able to identify a more efficient or 'better' way to do a thing from an engineering standpoint doesn't mean people will want to use it.

    So the Desert Fox may indeed have some engineering advantages in some areas. Who cares? If players had found it to be as impressive to shoot as it is engineered (if it is impressively engineered), then it would be a lot more popular.

    This is why people still shoot cockers and mags.

    And this is why both are in fact still holy grails. Not because they are perfectly engineered, but because people continue to want to use them despite their lack of blueprint perfection.
    Last edited by Menace; 10-24-2017 at 02:33 PM.

  8. #2678
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    At the same time, providing fixes and having brilliant engineering doesn't always make things better. I have the classic mag to beat all classic mags, literally. Solves many of the issues with the original and later mags, no internal parts wear, fast as an RT at normal and even lower input pressures, no shootdown, can run CO2, yadda, yadda.
    I want to see this! I still have my first MiniMag, and it wouldn't mind a tune up.
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  9. #2679
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    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    so i don't think there is some mythical "if the mag would have continued" design out there. no doubt AGD would have made a much better engineered product than ICD, but the idea of what the next mag was going to be, already exists.
    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    The FS bolt really answers it, but I don't think AGD would have stopped completely. They had just finished up the Emag stuff when SP struck. That patent is up, so we are talking a couple decades of lost evolution. I think they would have evolved also.
    I think you missed gordon's point.

    As something of an aside, it's hard for me to see the Emag as anything more than a kludge job. I don't know how far TK would have actually been willing to go into the EP realm, based on the Emag design and the few things I've read, he didn't seem interested at all.
    Last edited by PBSteve; 10-24-2017 at 02:58 PM.
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  10. #2680
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    As something of an aside, it's hard for me to see the Emag as anything more than a kludge job.
    Oh, I agree, though it also was a design of the times. I don't know if TK would have done anything strongly, but I think it would have happened with some of the people there, like Simon, pushing for it.

    Looking how he refined the King Cobra to the Mini, imagine what he might have done with the 'mag.
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