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Thread: The OT thread V1

  1. #2681
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    Oh, I agree, though it also was a design of the times. I don't know if TK would have done anything strongly, but I think it would have happened with some of the people there, like Simon, pushing for it.

    Looking how he refined the King Cobra to the Mini, imagine what he might have done with the 'mag.
    I am and it looks like a freestyle.

  2. #2682
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    Right, I'm pretty sure Simon was pretty involved in the Freestyle.
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  3. #2683
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    IIRC Simon had one of the early ones for testing... not sure if he was involved in the design.
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  4. #2684
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    Regardless, the '04 freestyle is the EP version of a mag.
    Ever so many citizens of this republic think they ought to believe that the Universe is a monarchy, and therefore they are always at odds with the republic. -Alan Watts

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  5. #2685
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    Well, without having a wonderful discussion on this like we have with spools/poppets and the US Budget:

    I think a true version would have the lvl10 bolt, an actual on/off and a far more reactive regulator. The FS lacks those, at least initially.

    And yes, I realize you have already decided I am wrong.
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  6. #2686
    Quote Originally Posted by ironyusa View Post
    Jerry Dobbins was a contemporary of TK and from everything I can tell the ICD desert fox is an improvement by all accounts over the mag. The mag is not some holy grail of paintball.
    That is probably why foxes on the resale market still fetch upwards of $300 and why you see too few of them in the wild.

    But you miss the love. Its not that TK made the holy grail, and no one can improve upon it. Far from that, but it is, IMO that the mag was so far ahead of the curve that what was made 30 years ago, that was common place in the field, is only now being met by the field.

    I would venture it was Hawk that did the majority of the FS work but that is just a guess. But even though Jerry Dobbins was an electrical engineer, he made absolutely weak and shitty harness design.

    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    I would say the Mag is a definitive design though.

    It was wholly original, with design features and a drivetrain that was unique and solid for years. The foundation or trunk for the Desert Fox, Armson, Badger, Freestyle and finally all pneumatic sear designs. The completely out of the box idea changed everything on our ideas of what a marker could be - and also was a huge step up in reliability and serviceability that the market took decades to catch up to.

    I would say it isn't the Holy Grail anymore - Much like the McLaren F1 isn't the holy grail of vehicles now, but at the time it broke all barriers of what a vehicle could be and raised the bar by a good amount.

    It is an achievement for paintball markers that far surpassed everything else at the time, at least a decade ahead of what the market had. Much like the Tippmann 68 Special, Palmers and Angel, it really is one of the major game changers in the industry. That it is still running now with a healthy user base says quite a bit.
    Exactly!

    The mag had so much and so much was taken for granted that the party pieces that are held in esteem today were never done, because it was 20 years ago and things were very different.

    The mag is not a perfect design. It has many flaws that are over looked by mag lovers because those things don't matter. Its heavy, there is no huge aftermarket unlike what cockers had or have now, blah blah blah. But all those detractors to it can not deny that the mag had a huge fundamental foot print. But 30 years put a lot of dust on who and where it came from.

    Quote Originally Posted by ironyusa View Post
    I agree, but the evolution of that design should have been... more intelligent IMO. As best I can tell there were multiple version of the on/off on the mag and none were good IMO. I give credit where due and it was the first blowforward spool (or spool valve period) of which I'm aware. I mean, the fact that ICD saw the most glaring issue and solved it showed that TK was not infallible. The ICD freestyle may be a branch of the automag, but I'd say it had more influence on modern designs than the mag itself. I'm really not hating on the mag, but I feel it's kind of like the NT. Decent enough idea, but not great execution.
    Who is more influential, the person who laid out the design or the people that make small improvements on the design over the years? Case in point, the light bulb. Thomas Edison didn't invent the light buld, but he invented a better one, taking the design and making changes imto it to what it is today. Then today said, here are halogens, sodium and LEDs which put the incandescent bulds way back in the the last century.

    So yes, you can shave off half the weight, make it smoother, smaller better, but the key to a mag, being a modular system (other than certain parts of the RT, you can take every part on a mag and swap them between any mag), give it better looks and options but that takes money, money that TK doesn't spend in paintball anymore.

    Hell you like the NT. Think what it would take to make those improvements to it(barring any rights to design, patents etc), put them in a new gun, with changes of modern guns (hoseless?), and get them to market. Having the idea and twking it to fruition are 2 widely different things. Yet a 18y/o X valve can easily keep up with anything with eyes, be gentler or as gentle as anything out there today (which is funny cause the L10 solved the chopping problem) and be as consistent as you want. But its an old design from a bygone era.

    As for the FS, the design was good but it was let down by poor reg design, small market vs big market, no real advertising, no sponsored flagship team and no market footprint (areas where you would have proshops and fields having the gun out there feeding their personal markets). You can have a great design that does everything better, but if you can not get it out in the world, it just will wither and die.

  7. #2687
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    Well, without having a wonderful discussion on this like we have with spools/poppets and the US Budget:

    I think a true version would have the lvl10 bolt, an actual on/off and a far more reactive regulator. The FS lacks those, at least initially.

    And yes, I realize you have already decided I am wrong.
    Meh, you can have this one.

    Isn't the lvl 10 just a bleed hole combined with a more finely tuned spring setup? Am I missing something? Feels like the LPR on the FS would be pretty close, just short the bleed.
    Ever so many citizens of this republic think they ought to believe that the Universe is a monarchy, and therefore they are always at odds with the republic. -Alan Watts

    I work for the company building the Paragon

  8. #2688
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    As for the FS, the design was good but it was let down by poor reg design, small market vs big market, no real advertising, no sponsored flagship team and no market footprint
    It was rocked by the Naughty Dogs right next to the Timmy.

    The problem was it was a bit finicky - if you didn't get the LPR just right, or the solenoid was a bit off, or the wiring... sometimes they just wouldn't work, and for no good reason. Rocky said they had to have quite a few backup. When they worked, they beat everything on the market. When they worked.
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  9. #2689
    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    It was rocked by the Naughty Dogs right next to the Timmy.

    The problem was it was a bit finicky - if you didn't get the LPR just right, or the solenoid was a bit off, or the wiring... sometimes they just wouldn't work, and for no good reason. Rocky said they had to have quite a few backup. When they worked, they beat everything on the market. When they worked.
    #ICDproblems
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  10. #2690
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    Meh, you can have this one.

    Isn't the lvl 10 just a bleed hole combined with a more finely tuned spring setup? Am I missing something? Feels like the LPR on the FS would be pretty close, just short the bleed.
    I'll take this small victory!

    Yeah, the lvl10 was about that. On a test version of the Torque we ended up with a pretty good nick on the o-ring, and it would work exactly the same. I almost added it as a small weep hole feature, it worked so good. Instead I stepped the bolt to have the staged pressure steps.

    The way the LPR worked and the tuning... they should have just removed making it adjustable or set it up to run without one, like the Ion.
    Josh Coray
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