Living Legends 8 bans First Strike Rounds

[pbjosh]

So what would Tiberius even do for ASTM testing? There is no standard that would cover their round is there? Thus until people go and create a standard for non-sperical rounds that the FSR could even apply to, Tiberius can do all the testing in the universe and it still won't pass the ASTM spec until someone specifically goes in and writes regulations that cover such rounds. That all is to say, from what I've been told the word 'spherical' is specifically the nomenclature that precludes the non-spherical First Strikes from being acceptable.

That's why the rounds aren't ASTM spec, because they are specifically inapplicable to any standard on the books.

But if no-one ever made or marketed anything that diddn't fit the current specs, then there'd never be demand for such a spec in the first place.

They can go to the board. I heard that last year (from a friend on the board) that KEE pushed for a huge spec for their Spatmaster line. Well, Low Impact rounds and related. There is a whole new bit of reasoning in there for it. What masks, what rounds fit the usage, what the energy levels per shot was, etc.

Why? Because without that push they would not be allowed on fields. They would also not be allowed to use the low impact goggle, and would have to recommend and package with the marker a normal paintball mask.

I do not know why Tiberius didn't do ASTM. They may have felt the round fell under the standard. The weight is low, so the impact fits. Not sure. All I can do is speculate.

[YOUNGSTOWN]

Aside from the fact that FSR's were initially designed as a less than lethal round... I'm not shocked they finally banned them.
They hurt like hell and definitely can cut you up.

If I remember correctly ...I believe that for astm a .68 cal ball it has to break on a solid target 20ft away and at a velocity of 140fps to be within the standard. I don't have a FSR to verify if they do or do not...but in addition...as previously mentioned, I assume another hang up is the "spherical" terminology.

If they Tiberius/GA wants to pursue it, I would submit it to ASTM just like KEE.

If they feel that they can produce the math that shows it is a round that falls within the standard, i'm sure they will amend the wordage or make amendments that they can only be used under "x" conditions.

[PBSteve]

I do wonder why that is. The time factor? Might FSR not get approved even if they lobbied for it? Are they just apathetic to ASTM requirements (at least up until now)? Who knows.

It seems weird in such a liability-heavy environment.

And yes, it is my understanding they wouldn't need to join, just submit. Although joining might improve their chances.

[YOUNGSTOWN]

Well... i'd say that Tiberius/GA is just running the gambit of producing them for profit before there is a claim against them without a astm cert.
I guess that's why the big stay big...and the small guys stay small....

And it makes sense that insurance carriers want less claims (aka less payouts)...so, again not surprised Cossio told them they are off limits.

[PBSteve]

Alright, the sphericity requirement is probably in there. It would likely need to be addended to include FS rounds so as to not require everyone in the industry re-do their certs.

I would be surprised if people on the board included non-spherical rounds without close examination and caveat.

Something to keep in mind is that a sphere has the lowest surface area to volume ratio of any geometric shape. Anything that's non-spherical will have more shell material.

And, to beat a dead horse, presumably have more residual energy at a given range.

[pbjosh]

And, to beat a dead horse, presumably have more residual energy at a given range.

That was agreed upon - that it is still going to be less than muzzle energy. :P

Since they use PLA I think I will CAD up some tails to play with, my printer uses PLA. I wonder what the energy curve of a full paintball is compared to a lightweight half full FS round.

[PBSteve]

That was agreed upon - that it is still going to be less than muzzle energy. :P

Thanks for clearing up that paintballs don't spontaneously create energy.

Since they use PLA I think I will CAD up some tails to play with, my printer uses PLA. I wonder what the energy curve of a full paintball is compared to a lightweight half full FS round.

I'll save you some time - energy scales linearly with mass, and division is easy.

[pbjosh]

Sorry my paraphrase confused you.

"I wonder what the residual energy curve of a full paintball is compared to a lightweight half full FS round."

[PBSteve]

I would ask UV_Halo for his data or to run the numbers rather than use CAD.

Since energy lost is a function of velocity and round shape, it's going to be a pain to figure out.

Edit: Oh cool, it's free: http://www.hawkeoptics.com/chairgun.html

Since UV_Halo did the work to figure out the coefficients, shouldn't be tough to run the numbers ourselves.

[pbjosh]

Ah, I meant CAD up as in actually make some FS style tails in Solidworks, print them in PLA, then glue them to a full paintball.

Then shoot them.

Versus a FS, and a regular .68 - Empirical data. Well, basic guess data since I don't have much time off to sit down and test something like this. Maybe I can send some tails to somebody.