Living Legends 8 bans First Strike Rounds

[pbjosh]

Lets take an example where a customer does knock off a round in the safe area, it hits, and the person hit sues the field and the owner (and also the land owner, shoot maybe the gun manufacturer and a tech, just because.) (You have a right to sue, the waiver is a CYA)

Was the customer told to keep the gun safe? Were there signs up? Was there a barrel bag supplied by the field? Required by the field? Did you sign the waiver? Did the other kid?

As the field owner if you did all of that, and made sure the waiver is good, you are fine. As the customer who got hit, the insurance is there to cover their injuries. But if the field owner didn't they might/should be liable for those costs then.

The customer who didn't follow the rules and keep a bag on would be responsible then, because they had signed a waiver but didn't follow the rules.

The matter of the round type is not the issue the insurance looks at, but fault.

Sometimes there is no fault. On my field insurance if somebody walked up to my property, tripped and ruined their knee on a small dip in the path the moment they set foot on the property they were covered up to $1 Million. Say there was a different accident, and an injury? Then you are covered.

But if somebody was allowed to use non-industry certified products on the field, well, that is the No-No. The issue isn't the type of round, the speed, but compliance to ASTM.

If ASTM approved it, insurance wouldn't give a lick. Hence a push a bit ago about low powered rounds and related uses that one of the companies was pushing through. It was for insurance purposes so the JT splatmaster could be used at some fields.

[going_home]

BSTrade sections are full of first strike markers already !

[pbjosh]

Hmm....

[Pump Scout]

You're right. I am. I'm just holding it back until I find out who's to blame (I've already cleared CPX and Viper of this).

As someone who works within the insurance industry (wife does as well, different lines), I can safely say you can clear Larry Cossio as well.

When an underwriter sends down a directive, agents have no choice but to follow it or be dropped themselves. No agent is going to self-insure unless they've got millions upon millions of dollars to fall back on.

What's very likely is that some field asked their insurance agent if FSR's were OK on their policy. Maybe they had someone show up with them. Maybe they wanted to sell them and get in on that mag-fed craze. Maybe they had someone get hurt from one. Anyway, their insurance agent probably sent it up the chain to the underwriter, who took a brief look at the FSR, said "ah, no way in hell, this is a riot control projectile*", and issued the "no go" directive to ALL of their agents.

Just a guess, but an educated one.

* They are, and we know that. My wife has never played, but has been around the game for 25 years, and immediately saw FSR's for what they are.

[UV Halo]

Anyway, their insurance agent probably sent it up the chain to the underwriter, who took a brief look at the FSR, said "ah, no way in hell, this is a riot control projectile*", and issued the "no go" directive to ALL of their agents.

Just a guess, but an educated one.

* They are, and we know that. My wife has never played, but has been around the game for 25 years, and immediately saw FSR's for what they are.

I disagree and feel that this is a gross oversimplification.

The shell material of the FN303 and the FSR was originally designed for paintball. The outer shell shape and center of gravity were designed under a less-lethal contract to keep the FN303 rounds oriented correctly for optimal aerodynamic performance. To make the FS rounds, they emptied the forward weighting or ballast section, filled that section with paint, and deleted the rear payload portion. The only thing in common between the FN303 and the FS round is the profile and shell material. So, given the origin of the shell material, the only "less-lethal" like aspect of the FS round is the profile.

[HipboyScott]

I have been working with, and talking with, some of the people who developed the FSR and the FL rounds and Pepperballs and what-not: FSR are very very different from 303 rounds up close. The feel is substantially different.

I have taken my share of FS hits at magfed games. My only complaint is the fill is the worst to clean next to the cakey winter fills. I don't mind thay they can be slightly more prone to small cuts on exposed skin, I still go out in a tshirt.

I'm sure that PST is going to fight to salvage the First Strike brand and I have a feeling it will involve being more pro-active in getting the rounds fully ASTM recognized.

But who knows, it may open the door to the other shaped rounds starting to enter the fray with more official recognitions. It might Also NOT fix the insurance issue.

[Pump Scout]

Do we know what the FSR shells are made of? We know a paintball is hardened gelatin. We know an FN303 projectile is plastic. What's an FSR's shell?

[emisnug]

FSR Shells are polystyrene based. I've taken a couple hits from FSRs and given a few out myself. At the end of the day, it's paintball. It leaves bruises etc. My local field got into a poorly advised lawsuit over a 15 year old who thought paintballs didn't bruise. It was over in a matter of minutes, but the field is still trying to shake the reputation.

I do think that Tiberius did themselves over by not getting an ATSM guy to look at a First Strike.

[BigEvil]

Has anyone even mentioned that players are chronoing their markers at 280 with paintballs, then switching on the fly to FSRs with no adjustment and shooting well over 300 fps?

That is a huge issue imo. Are paintball goggles designed to withstand impacts from FSRs at 300+ fps?

[cockerpunk]

As someone who works within the insurance industry (wife does as well, different lines), I can safely say you can clear Larry Cossio as well.

When an underwriter sends down a directive, agents have no choice but to follow it or be dropped themselves. No agent is going to self-insure unless they've got millions upon millions of dollars to fall back on.

What's very likely is that some field asked their insurance agent if FSR's were OK on their policy. Maybe they had someone show up with them. Maybe they wanted to sell them and get in on that mag-fed craze. Maybe they had someone get hurt from one. Anyway, their insurance agent probably sent it up the chain to the underwriter, who took a brief look at the FSR, said "ah, no way in hell, this is a riot control projectile*", and issued the "no go" directive to ALL of their agents.

Just a guess, but an educated one.

* They are, and we know that. My wife has never played, but has been around the game for 25 years, and immediately saw FSR's for what they are.

form follows function.

you want a longer range, more accurate paintball, but still keep .68 cal? its gonna look like that. whatever reason you want that extra range and accuracy, be it a game, or riot control, its gonna look the same.

form follows function.