Living Legends 8 bans First Strike Rounds

[Fred]

Has anyone even mentioned that players are chronoing their markers at 280 with paintballs, then switching on the fly to FSRs with no adjustment and shooting well over 300 fps?

That is a huge issue imo. Are paintball goggles designed to withstand impacts from FSRs at 300+ fps?

Even not having played much since they were introduced, this is a no brainer, if the performance profile is such that a FSR will chrono faster than a ball all other marker settings being equal, RED ALERT! Fields should be all over that like me on ice cream after a wing eating contest.

[PBSteve]

Do we know what the FSR shells are made of? We know a paintball is hardened gelatin. We know an FN303 projectile is plastic. What's an FSR's shell?

Polystyrene, which is one reason a lot of fields hate them. They don't really degrade (compared to gelatin), so the shell fragments end up everywhere.

[Cougar20th]

I disagree and feel that this is a gross oversimplification.

The shell material of the FN303 and the FSR was originally designed for paintball. The outer shell shape and center of gravity were designed under a less-lethal contract to keep the FN303 rounds oriented correctly for optimal aerodynamic performance. To make the FS rounds, they emptied the forward weighting or ballast section, filled that section with paint, and deleted the rear payload portion. The only thing in common between the FN303 and the FS round is the profile and shell material. So, given the origin of the shell material, the only "less-lethal" like aspect of the FS round is the profile.

The FS & FN round have very little in common other then size & shape. And FN round should never be used on a PB field.

FN rounds are a clear plastic (Polycarbonate?) Shell, Very hard. No flex in them at all. The front is weighted with granulated bismuth. The rear is fulled with payload (Paint, CS, etc).
They do not have the open back to them as FS rounds do.
Here is a picture of some of the FN rounds I have. Ive got 300 of these things. Which are generally useless to me. NO I will not sell them.

This is included with every box of 150 FN rounds. Pretty sure its printed on the box as well.
http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/...ps750e0d63.jpg
And printed on every 15 round packet
http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/...pscd7aed0e.jpg

FS rounds are made out of a much more flexible & brittle material. I'm not sure what it is but it is not similar to the FN material. They have the paint moved to the front of the round and the rear payload area doesn't exist.

[Pump Scout]

Hmm. Well, color me more educated now than before.

Seriously, there's a lot I didn't (and probably still don't) know about FSR. Still, appearance can become one's reality, especially in the absence of information.

Maybe I'll see about picking up a few of these and messing around with them some more. I'm not going to shoot them at any people, but I'd sure like to be better informed on them.

[UV Halo]

Has anyone even mentioned that players are chronoing their markers at 280 with paintballs, then switching on the fly to FSRs with no adjustment and shooting well over 300 fps?

That is a huge issue imo. Are paintball goggles designed to withstand impacts from FSRs at 300+ fps?

Even not having played much since they were introduced, this is a no brainer, if the performance profile is such that a FSR will chrono faster than a ball all other marker settings being equal, RED ALERT! Fields should be all over that like me on ice cream after a wing eating contest.

...Not so fast. The velocity difference depends on the barrel fit for both the ball and the FS round. It's not a universal case only because it's very rare to find a barrel-paint-FS match. I do believe that there are idiots out there chronoing with regular paint and shooting FS rounds in game. The solution to that, which I endorse, is tagging players that intend to shoot FS rounds with a unique identifier, after chronoing with the rounds. If anyone other than a tagged individual is found to be shooting FS rounds, ejection and/or banning (depending on the severity of the incident and, how much of a problem the field is having)...

Here are some things to consider: FS Rounds really do not take well to underbore conditions (they require huge increases in pressure to overcome the friction because they don't squeeze like PBs). Let's assume that the FS round is a bore match at .683, and you're shooting .678 (or smaller). The FS will fly at full speed, while the PBs will fly slower, this is where the increase in FS velocity comes from. However, I there are significant velocity differences with regular paint if you switch from a massive overbore barrel to a slight underbore barrel.

AS for Paintball goggle ratings, I've not seen the ASTM that defines them but I'd assume there is a margin above 300FPS hits at 20ft or less. How much, I don't know. However, there is this:

[Pump Scout]

I don't know that I'd use goggles standing up in that way as proof of not dangerous.



IIRC, the stock barrel on the Empire Trracer was made .688 to fit FSR's. Just as a bore-size reference. Again, I'd have to try that out to be sure, or have Simon (who's on the road) chime in.

[AndrewTheWookie]

So what you're saying is we should allow shotguns on the field?

[PBSteve]

I wouldn't really worry at all about the masks, anything ASTM approved is going to be very well done.

What the insurance companies are going to worry about is the FS rounds hitting an unprotected eye. I'm still unsure what he was trying to show, but as Josh pointed out so thoroughly that's when the insurance companies have to go to court or pay out. Insurance companies are in the business of limiting payouts.

I would not be surprised in the slightest if FS rounds caused more damage on average than a standard paintball in the case of an unprotected eye injury. In an accidental discharge situation, FS rounds will be travelling faster at an equivalent range and contain more shell material that is likely less frangible than a standard paintball's shell.

I would also not be surprised if Tiberius suspected the same, which is why they haven't sought ASTM certification. Getting turned down would kill it immediately and completely. Not seeking certification lets them skirt the issue until insurance companies catch on.

Edit: Or maybe they have sought certification and been turned down, and those rejections are just not made public.

[HipboyScott]

Tiberius themselves claim they like to use .683 as its theoretically a perfect bore match... but that's rubbish. It uses a lot of energy, has a great chance of barrel breaks, and many rounds are coming in at .684-.685

.686 is the ideal that many have come to find that will consistently work. .688 is the largest you would go and expect efficient FS Performance, but you obviously could use a .690 or whatever in a pinch.

The bigger challenge still with monitoring FS velocity is that some players will have separate barrel setups between launching FS and using roundball; I use my Stella for paintballs exclusively, while I have a rifled HHA MoFo for my FSR.

I know enough to chrono between barrel changes always, and I know to use FSR with my FSR barrel and vice versa.

To lessen the costs many will dial in their marker using roundball to a velocity 20 fps below the intended FSR speed, then just verify with a few real ones to Make sure.

I've spent 40 FSR over the chrono before and if I was paying retail on em I'd be PISSED.

As-is we just gotta remember TANSTAAFL, but making better standards for dealing with these projectiles on a field logitstics level is probably the most important part now.

[pbjosh]

A couple bits:

Back a page or two I broke out a F=ma calculator and weights for FS vs. regular .68 caliber rounds. I showed that FS rounds might go faster but even when they do they have less impact force.

It is significantly less moving mass. Do not be worried to much about the small difference in velocity, since the mass is 30% below allowed ASTM levels.

In addition Simon had a video of a Wrath tuned up to 425-450fps to cover goggle testing. It is shot at near point blank (12" or so) range. IIRC they used a steel bearing also?

Insurance agencies are not worried about whither the round is slightly different or how. ALL they will want is an ASTM stamp on it. It could be .90cal going at 400fps. They are not going to test it. They don't care.

Does it meet ASTM? Then you are set. If not, Insurance won't cover it.

In fact, PBSteve here is something you need to consider on the Paragon if you have not, it is what we had to do to adhere to be able to get insurance to cover your backside:

http://www.astm.org/Standards/F2272.htm

Here are the warning labels you need to place on your marker and on your box:

http://www.astm.org/Standards/F2904.htm

Without those being done your marker is not allowed on most insured fields. To field owners here, some Chinese cheap guns have NOT been ASTM tested. (it is really kinda silly and simple, but they haven't.) So you could be liable if there is a problem.

Note, there is a type and standard for field netting installation also:

http://www.astm.org/Standards/F2184.htm

And, so no different that testing all of those other things to make compliant for ASTM, here are the paintball standards. For just the ball. ASTM F1979-10(2014) Standard Specification for Paintballs Used in the Sport of Paintball:

http://www.astm.org/Standards/F1979.htm

Abstract

This specification establishes testing procedures and critical characteristics of 0.68 caliber paintballs which help define whether a paintball is suitable for use in the sport of paintball. Furthermore, the specification establishes minimum warning and package labeling to help ensure that the paintballs are used in a safe manner and that the risk of injury is reduced. Tests shall be performed to conform with the requirements specified in accordance with the following test methods: paintball compatibility with polycarbonate and paintball impact breakage test.

This abstract is a brief summary of the referenced standard. It is informational only and not an official part of the standard; the full text of the standard itself must be referred to for its use and application. ASTM does not give any warranty express or implied or make any representation that the contents of this abstract are accurate, complete or up to date.

1. Scope

1.1 This specification establishes testing procedures and critical characteristics of common calibers of paintball which help define whether a paintball is suitable for use in the sport of paintball. Furthermore, the specification establishes minimum warning and package labeling to help ensure that the paintballs are used in a safe manner and that the risk of injury is reduced.

1.2 This specification does not cover non-recreational paintballs, for example, those used by law enforcement, scientific, military, or theatrical entities.

1.3 The values stated in SI units are to be regarded as the standard. The values given in parentheses are for information only.

1.4 This specification does not purport to address all of the safety issues associated with the sport of paintball. It is the responsibility of the user of this specification to establish appropriate safety and health practices and to comply with all applicable laws and regulations.

2. Referenced Documents (purchase separately)

ASTM Standards

F2272 Specification for Paintball Markers

For any paintball product to be allowed on an insured field it will need to be ASTM approved. Simple as that.

IF you run a field, you need to watch that. You will be liable for non ASTM product you allow on the field if they fail.

If you are a producer of parts or product, you product will not be allowed on a field without ASTM testing.

Get to work on that stand Steve! You need a tennis ball, some wood, and a spring.