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Thread: Living Legends 8 bans First Strike Rounds

  1. #21
    Insider PBSteve's Avatar
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    Alright, let's break it down to a super simple example to illustrate my point.

    Ignore the potential increase in injury due to the fins.

    Assume 200fps is required to cause damage.

    Assume injury is caused by an accidental random discharge among an even distribution of people (say, in staging)

    So if the round travels, as an example, 25% further before velocity drops below 200fps, the affected area sweeps out a circle. That means additional area covered where a round could cause harm increases as r^2. However you need to account for the trajectories becoming less dense as you travel from the shooter, which you can approximate by gauss' law. Since we're working in 2D (circle above, not a sphere) the "trajectory density" drops as 1/r.

    So your chance of randomly hitting someone at a velocity that could cause harm increases roughly (r^2*1/r=r) proportional to the increase in effective range.
    Last edited by PBSteve; 05-12-2015 at 03:10 PM.

  2. #22
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    damn you and your maths.

    but realistically FSR do travel faster at a given pressure. If you set your marker to for .68 paintballs at 280 your FSR will be firing 295-305. That's part of the issue, a lot of unscrupulous players (what in paintball? NEVER...) will chrono 280 with a .68 ball then switch on the fly to FSR (ahem Tactical Ironmen I am looking at you) and end up launching a 10-18 less frangible projectiles above ASTM recommended guidelines. sometimes full auto. So as much as FSR are a part of magfed play (which I do a lot of) I still get complaints from players. All it takes is one guy coming into a room who switched to FSR after chrono and dropping 10 FSR full auto into you at 10' shooting 305 FPS and you are gonna have a bad day.

    I really think that Tiberius has done a pretty huge disservice by not getting them ASTM certified tbh. I know they were designed for LEO and less lethal applications, but to unleash them on the public without that level of due diligence seems a bit amiss in my books. I don't blame Cossio.

    It is going to have a ripple effect too, I know I got some push back from players once by disallowing them, and Tiberius was actually so bold as to suggest that the field (which has been in business for 20+ years and is WELL known) switch insurance providers. When they declined, Tiberius actually declined to sponsor the event.

    So I am going to back Cossio on this one. And agree with Simon. This CANNOT have been a surprise. My run in with FSR and insurance was 8 months ago. Viper saw this coming and should have known better.
    If there is another group of people outside of paintballers who will jump on a bandwagon faster than the speed of light - I have yet to meet them.

  3. #23
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    300fps is what is considered to cause damage though, not 200fps. I don't have to assume anything. 300 was figured out a long time ago, or else the max muzzle velocity would have been 200fps.

    That is also why there is a limit on 'Muzzle' velocity and not '50ft-away' velocity.

    It is based on a 3.2 or so gram ball, and why there were higher limits on smaller caliber paint - they had less energy total even at the higher velocity, though this is definitely old school info when we had .60, .63, .50 and even some .40/.38 caliber paintballs.

    As for weight, from Warpig:

    Twenty sample First Strike projectiles used for review weighed in at 1.7 ounces, or approximately 0.09 ounces per ball. Although not directly applicable, since it defines a paintball as a “spherical ball” in shape, ASTM standard F1779 – 04 Standard Specification for Paintballs Used in the Sport of Paintball paragraph 3.3 sets a maximum weight of 3.5 grams for a paintball – or 0.123 ounces. For comparison, 20 DXS Gold paintballs weighed in at 2.2 ounces, or approximately 0.11 ounces per ball. - See more at: http://www.warpig.com/paintball/tech....V7DSeeIG.dpuf
    They weight less, in fact 27% less than max allowable weight.

    The energy available at 300fps is LESS than on a standard paintball. It is a safer round from that stand point by nearly 30% even at close range.

    Again, I don't think the insurance company has done ANY testing, or even really looked into it. And since ASTM is written by the industry, if they have not placed FS rounds under ASTM spec, then there is no ASTM spec for that item.
    Last edited by pbjosh; 05-12-2015 at 03:57 PM. Reason: ASTM not ANSI
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    "So you've done this before?"
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  5. #25
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    If you set your marker to for .68 paintballs at 280 your FSR will be firing 295-305. That's part of the issue, a lot of unscrupulous players (what in paintball? NEVER...) will chrono 280 with a .68 ball then switch on the fly to FSR (ahem Tactical Ironmen I am looking at you) and end up launching a 10-18 less frangible projectiles above ASTM recommended guidelines.
    Energy Issues are getting missing in your calculation:

    The FS rounds weight less, and hence go faster that allowed.

    But the energy imparted on the object they hit?

    Short of a few small variables that are not worth really calculating, they have exactly the same energy as a slower moving yet heavier projectile. It is like the "Frozen Paintballs Hurt More" when, well it is hard to actually freeze a paintball (I have played to -17F) and they weight the same and go the same speed (if you can get them out of your barrel).

    Energy is the same, even if velocity is higher.

    And again, if the gun is shooting below 300fps like it should, then energy transfer is the lower compared to a normal .68 round traveling the same speed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Let me at least quote some of the page:

    "This page has some issues "

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  6. #26
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    Here is a calculator also, to make quick work of the argument:

    http://www.calctool.org/CALC/phys/newtonian/fma

    You can change the weight to ounces and the velocity to fps.

    If you use .09 for FS rounds and .123 as max .68 caliber rounds then you can see the energy from the full paintball at 285 fps is .303N of force, and the FS at 305fps is .237N of force.

    So, again, the FS round is technically safer on an energy delivered at the muzzle, even accounting for major changes in velocity due to a lighter round.

    (Small edit, a .11oz round at 285 would have .0.271N of force. )
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  7. #27
    Insider PBSteve's Avatar
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    300 fps is safe for skin and protected eyes, but do you really think no damage would occurr to an unprotected eye at 200 fps?

    That's the serious injury that's probably most common and what insurance companies have to pay out for in the case of an accident. Yes, even with "waivers".

    edit: Josh, energy is not measured in newtons, and is not the same as force. There's no good way to calculate max force here, it'd have to be measured.
    Last edited by PBSteve; 05-12-2015 at 04:56 PM.

  8. #28
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    300 fps is safe for skin and protected eyes, but do you really think no damage would occurr to an unprotected eye at 200 fps?
    Oh, I realize you don't know how the insurance worked. Ah, your reasoning is flawed. You are thinking like an engineer. (That is a compliment.)

    ALL areas of the field are managed in a way to not allow a discharge in the staging area. That is how the insurance works. There is not a calculation for in the staging area. If a paintball gun discharges in the staging area it is the fault of the field owner or the individual, and insurance specifically states in how you are allowed to setup the field and how you are to instruct the player and how you setup signage to prevent any of that.

    At that point it is the operators fault for not adhering to the requirements of insurance: by bad field design, netting, instruction or not covering the proper use of barrel protection or goggles on.

    After that, with the waiver, the insurance covers the field owners backside if the customer doesn't follow those rules. The customer becomes liable at that point.

    Insurance covers the field operator! And in the case of Kerry, it protects CPX from damages from the LL event, in addition to protecting Kerry. But if Kerry allows a non ASTM mask to be used, he is acting outside the allowances of the insurance, and hence HE is liable to be sued by the customer because he allowed it.

    Insurance won't cover him then.

    Same with using a FS round. If it is not ASTM standard it would be the same as allowing Ski goggles, or shooting at 400fps, or tanks that were past hydro to go into the field.

    The issue has not a friggen thing with allowable distance calculations in the staging area, they do no such thing. They say "That shall not happen" and if it does, look on the waiver, that is your own damn fault. Unless Kerry never made that clear you needed a barrel bag on your gun.

    Liability actions, not engineering.

    Hence, this "They base prices on their best estimate of risk, and when a projectile holds velocity further, the risk of injury goes up." doesn't apply, there is no calculation based on that, since at no time in a staging area is a discharge allowed.

    It is about in field play, and no, no calculations were done by insurance, they just follow ASTM.

    ______________________________

    Energy/Force - Meh, small nit.

    Still is lower with a FS round than a normal round. :P
    Last edited by pbjosh; 05-12-2015 at 05:19 PM.
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  9. #29
    Insider PBSteve's Avatar
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    All I can say to that very tidy perspective on how insurance works is, you can never sign away your right to sue.

    Doubly so for an insurance company, be it health or liability. They will go after anyone and everyone involved.

    And to add to that, even if it were in ASTM standards I could see reasons for an insurance company not to cover it, especially if they have injury history on it that shows an increased risk relative to use.
    Last edited by PBSteve; 05-12-2015 at 06:34 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    well shit, uv halo is gonna be PISSED
    You're right. I am. I'm just holding it back until I find out who's to blame (I've already cleared CPX and Viper of this).

    Quote Originally Posted by PBSteve View Post
    Alright, let's break it down to a super simple example to illustrate my point.

    Ignore the potential increase in injury due to the fins.

    Assume 200fps is required to cause damage.

    Assume injury is caused by an accidental random discharge among an even distribution of people (say, in staging)

    So if the round travels, as an example, 25% further before velocity drops below 200fps, the affected area sweeps out a circle. That means additional area covered where a round could cause harm increases as r^2. However you need to account for the trajectories becoming less dense as you travel from the shooter, which you can approximate by gauss' law. Since we're working in 2D (circle above, not a sphere) the "trajectory density" drops as 1/r.

    So your chance of randomly hitting someone at a velocity that could cause harm increases roughly (r^2*1/r=r) proportional to the increase in effective range.
    Not a bad analysis but, I seriously doubt that the insurance underwriters get anywhere near a field when considering FS rounds, even a hypothetical one.

    Quote Originally Posted by TierOneJeff View Post
    damn you and your maths.

    but realistically FSR do travel faster at a given pressure. If you set your marker to for .68 paintballs at 280 your FSR will be firing 295-305. That's part of the issue, a lot of unscrupulous players (what in paintball? NEVER...) will chrono 280 with a .68 ball then switch on the fly to FSR (ahem Tactical Ironmen I am looking at you) and end up launching a 10-18 less frangible projectiles above ASTM recommended guidelines. sometimes full auto. So as much as FSR are a part of magfed play (which I do a lot of) I still get complaints from players. All it takes is one guy coming into a room who switched to FSR after chrono and dropping 10 FSR full auto into you at 10' shooting 305 FPS and you are gonna have a bad day.

    I really think that Tiberius has done a pretty huge disservice by not getting them ASTM certified tbh. I know they were designed for LEO and less lethal applications, but to unleash them on the public without that level of due diligence seems a bit amiss in my books. I don't blame Cossio.

    It is going to have a ripple effect too, I know I got some push back from players once by disallowing them, and Tiberius was actually so bold as to suggest that the field (which has been in business for 20+ years and is WELL known) switch insurance providers. When they declined, Tiberius actually declined to sponsor the event.

    So I am going to back Cossio on this one. And agree with Simon. This CANNOT have been a surprise. My run in with FSR and insurance was 8 months ago. Viper saw this coming and should have known better.
    Not so fast. The velocity difference depends on the barrel fit for both the ball and the FS round. It's not a universal case only because it's very rare to find a barrel-paint-FS match. I do believe that there are idiots out there chronoing with regular paint and shooting FS rounds in game. The solution to that, which I endorse, is tagging players that intend to shoot FS rounds with a unique identifier, after chronoing with the rounds. If anyone other than a tagged individual is found to be shooting FS rounds, ejection and/or banning (depending on the severity of the incident and, how much of a problem the field is having).

    As for Tiberius' behavior, I'm no fan of theirs given the problems I had with their markers, and their customer service but, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for now. That being said, I've seen no information yet that places this issue clearly in Tiberius Court. For example, I'd like to know just what has happened, if anything.

    As for the insurance side of things, I would note that CPX recently switched to CIA, and Viper may not have been aware of the implications if he has not crossed paths with CIA before. CPX does not normally allow FS rounds so, that may have never been a consideration during the insurance application process.

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