View Poll Results: should PE make cure style bolts for older guns?

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Thread: PE should make a cure style cocker bolt

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    well simon those gun speeds don't actually matter either cause they were all cheating anyway. no one is walking on a legal trigger at 18, much less 26+. as you even pointed out. but that goes back to an even bigger engineering failure in paintball than the arms race in the first place ... that no one wanted to, or cared enough, to actually build something reasonable to insure legality of the equipment (i know, the farce called the robot lol) and thus the strategy and technology based on exploiting such a glaringly stupid hole.

    case and point why I've made the career decisions i have. being smarter in the paintball business doesn't actually matter that much.
    Those gun speeds did matter because those teams won and those guns sold like crazy. The cash sales of Intimidators at events had to be seen to be believed. $60-$100,000 a day at World Cup.

    Quote Originally Posted by AndrewTheWookie View Post
    It's because people can't dissociate the sound of the valve with the handling of the paint. One of my friends swears up and down about how the Luxe can handle anything because "just listen to how soft it shoots, that baby will shoot anything."
    That is absolutely it. People judge smooth and soft on sound rather than reality. I did a test on that back when I was doing the original Vanquish. Different bolts at different speeds. People always stated the quieter gun kicked less even though that's not what the data showed.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    Those gun speeds did matter because those teams won and those guns sold like crazy. The cash sales of Intimidators at events had to be seen to be believed. $60-$100,000 a day at World Cup.
    1. i rest my career choice case yet again.

    2. if the guns had been policed to the rules, those teams would not have won. those guns would not have sold.

    3. this is exact reason however why the "sport" of "professional" paintball is such a joke, because everyone knows they are cheating, everyone is cheating, the league knows, the gun makers know, the players know, and no one has a reason to stop it. so why would they? everyone is making money, and the seriousness and professionalism of paintball as a real sport is the only actual casualty.

    but dont worry, im sure someone will come along next season and fix it back up (cha-ching, cha-ching, cha-chin) .... lol. the american MBA business model, give no fucks, destroy your future, print da money and run. who cares that your actively destroying the future and potential size of your market ...

    there is a reason paintball as an industry, and as a sport is such a joke to everyone ... and this is exactly why. we have only ourselves to blame.




    steve, to you point, i actually dont fundamentally disagree with a true unlimited league. i, unlike a lot of paintball players, think that the strength of paintball (like racing), and the reason its interesting is the number of different ways it can be played and with what level of technology etc. a true unlimited league would be really a hoot, provided you are not mixing tech levels without consent of the participants.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    1. i rest my career choice case yet again
    .
    Your laurels mean as much as my laurels. it means shit in the big prospective. If and when someone cares what i am shooting at the moment has no impact on anything. That is a high moral stand to take when no one cares.

    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    2. if the guns had been policed to the rules, those teams would not have won. those guns would not have sold.
    And how could it be policed? The technology was moving faster than the attempts of policing. And when viable attempts were made(i am looking at this from the outside in), manufacturers and players alike balked at it(remember the Semi-only boards?). It is easier to point fingers at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    3. this is exact reason however why the "sport" of "professional" paintball is such a joke, because everyone knows they are cheating, everyone is cheating, the league knows, the gun makers know, the players know, and no one has a reason to stop it. so why would they? everyone is making money, and the seriousness and professionalism of paintball as a real sport is the only actual casualty.

    but dont worry, im sure someone will come along next season and fix it back up (cha-ching, cha-ching, cha-chin) .... lol. the american MBA business model, give no fucks, destroy your future, print da money and run. who cares that your actively destroying the future and potential size of your market ...

    there is a reason paintball as an industry, and as a sport is such a joke to everyone ... and this is exactly why. we have only ourselves to blame.
    The lack of professionalism of this sport is no one has come up with good enough template to use. Every other sport has gone passed the nascent teething stages decades ago, but to me, paintball has jumped over learning to walk right into running. At this point, if it isn't at full speed, it begins to loose balance and start tripping upon itself.

    There are many sports in which cheating is seen as trying. Baseball for example. You can't bet on baseball, but the players using steroids launching home runs every other night bring people to the stadiums, money in the pockets of the teams and a blind eye to the staffs. The costs to the teams or the game are not nearly enough to pht an outright ban on it. Hence you still have players doing the PEDs and players found in violation still in the game, earning millions of dollars.

    But here is a race analogy for you. NASCAR. The biggest motorsport in America(not the best, tbat is a different discussion) has rampant cheating. How can driver drive 500miles in 4 hours, with countless pitstops, never stall the vehicle, yet when they get in the winners circle. They have to turn off the car as to disable their traction control so they can do few donuts. Against the rules, yes. Is it stopped, not to my knowledge...



    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    steve, to you point, i actually dont fundamentally disagree with a true unlimited league. i, unlike a lot of paintball players, think that the strength of paintball (like racing), and the reason its interesting is the number of different ways it can be played and with what level of technology etc. a true unlimited league would be really a hoot, provided you are not mixing tech levels without consent of the participants.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    .
    Your laurels mean as much as my laurels. it means shit in the big prospective. If and when someone cares what i am shooting at the moment has no impact on anything. That is a high moral stand to take when no one cares.


    And how could it be policed? The technology was moving faster than the attempts of policing. And when viable attempts were made(i am looking at this from the outside in), manufacturers and players alike balked at it(remember the Semi-only boards?). It is easier to point fingers at this point.


    The lack of professionalism of this sport is no one has come up with good enough template to use. Every other sport has gone passed the nascent teething stages decades ago, but to me, paintball has jumped over learning to walk right into running. At this point, if it isn't at full speed, it begins to loose balance and start tripping upon itself.

    There are many sports in which cheating is seen as trying. Baseball for example. You can't bet on baseball, but the players using steroids launching home runs every other night bring people to the stadiums, money in the pockets of the teams and a blind eye to the staffs. The costs to the teams or the game are not nearly enough to pht an outright ban on it. Hence you still have players doing the PEDs and players found in violation still in the game, earning millions of dollars.

    But here is a race analogy for you. NASCAR. The biggest motorsport in America(not the best, tbat is a different discussion) has rampant cheating. How can driver drive 500miles in 4 hours, with countless pitstops, never stall the vehicle, yet when they get in the winners circle. They have to turn off the car as to disable their traction control so they can do few donuts. Against the rules, yes. Is it stopped, not to my knowledge...
    a lot of this post doesn't have anything worth responding to, because in trying to disagree with me, you actually agree with me all over the place. and/or you simply misunderstand, such as your first bit. laurels? no idea where you got that, lol.

    on two points though i will respond:

    1. it has only ever taken the will to enforce trigger rules, to make guns legal again. there are so many fairly simple paths to this. sound, high speed cam, software/wireless signals, spec board etc etc. sure they all would cost competitors a bit, but respect is earned, not bought. and boards are cheap, and over time reach a standard, it would only take a season or two and everyone would go on thinking its crazy we never did. there is also an easy deterrent system here, demonstrate you can catch it fairly regularly, with a fairly stiff punishment, and it polices itself much better.

    my point is the motive of the league and manufacturers to do this is not there. they loved that era, selling 100 grand in guns a day? shit, who cares right? well, those of us who want the sport to be taken seriously, thats who cares. its shortsightedness really. 100 grand in guns a day for a few years at world cup is nice right, but now where are they? if bob sells a couple hundred grand in a guns a year i bet hes pretty happy. why? because the market died. why did the market die? because on the brink of pushing paintball into a mainsteam Xtreme sport in the 2002-2005 era, we were jerking off. if there was ever a time, enough money, a big enough market, and an interesting enough game format to push for professional respect, it was then. and if you actually make it, instead of skate parks your city puts in to entertain the kids, its paintball fields. instead of being a tiny niche activity thats easy to cut the second things get tough, its important to families and kids. i mean those are just examples but you get my point, if paintball was like lacrosse (a perfect example of how to build a sport), all the paintball companies would be FAR more healthy. or heck if you need a non-sport example, look at blade collecting. another great example of an expensive, "unsafe" thing that is hugely profitable right now. and hey get there by growing the market, into the mainstream.

    we failed to do that. and the damage is probably irreparable at this point.

    it took only the will to keep guns legal, to keep them legal. the powers that be, didn't want that though, $$$$$$$$$ and they screwed there own shots at the big times in doing so.

    2. NASCAR is a joke because of that. well, and other reasons, but yeah. i mean NASCAR cheated there own rules so danica could set poll remember? no one takes them seriously already.

    F1 on the other hand, because of its technical rules, breeds some of of the finest, and cleverest, engineering in the world. and it also takes some very fine and clever engineers to figure out what teams are doing, and if its cheating or not. there has to be a significant effort on the part of the league to understand/figure out how folks are cheating and how to catch them. this also requires resources ($$$$). this, has essentially, never happened in paintball. ever. ever.
    Last edited by cockerpunk; 01-14-2016 at 10:14 PM.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  5. #15
    The arms race was also huge for companies that didn't cheat. In 2007+ the Ego was the gun everyone bought because it was faster in legal semi than any other gun and so many people in the NPPL made it their gun of choice.

    The mini outsold it's competition because in the store when you turned the eyes off and dry fired it, it was easier to sell over the competitions offerings.

    The arms race gave us force feed and reliable hoppers. It gave us breech sensors. It gave us electronic guns (with the good and bad).

    Realy to call it dumb is a very single minded view point that is either trolling or naive. You may not have agreed with it and what happened because of it but it brought good and bad things with it and had a huge positive impact on the technology we use today even at what are relatively low rates of fire and with no cheating.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    The arms race was also huge for companies that didn't cheat. In 2007+ the Ego was the gun everyone bought because it was faster in legal semi than any other gun and so many people in the NPPL made it their gun of choice.

    The mini outsold it's competition because in the store when you turned the eyes off and dry fired it, it was easier to sell over the competitions offerings.

    The arms race gave us force feed and reliable hoppers. It gave us breech sensors. It gave us electronic guns (with the good and bad).

    Realy to call it dumb is a very single minded view point that is either trolling or naive. You may not have agreed with it and what happened because of it but it brought good and bad things with it and had a huge positive impact on the technology we use today even at what are relatively low rates of fire and with no cheating.
    no, no, no simon, go and read what i wrote and in response to what.

    you talked about a team shooting 26+ bps. that was the arms race. guns capable of 20 or 30 or more BPS, were never going to be legally used. ever. and driving our technology to that point was actually bad for it in almost every case. the arms race was not force feed, and electronic guns, the arms race we are talking about is 20-40 bps loaders, guns, boards etc .... all a total and utter waste. my argument isn't about force feed loaders and electronic guns, its about pushing those to such a place that they became totally useless, to anyone.

    now, we've actually had to undo all that damage. train folks to NOT just turn there loader up all the way. train folks to buy things for other reasons that insane, never legal, never useful, BPS on the packaging. its just silly. it always was.



    also, shooting faster in shop, or with better trigger geometry etc, on semi, without bounce, those are examples against what your arguing. thats an example of doing something within use and legally to sell guns. thats a good thing.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  7. #17
    Gordon, you love to make all encompassing statements about something and then later try to make out that's not what you did or change the discussion to be something else.

    You stated that the arms race was dumb. It was not.

    You may not agree with some of it, some of the results or why it happened but it wasn't dumb and resulted in some extremely beneficial things for paintball.

    You can't suddenly claim breech sensors and force-fed loaders weren't part of the arms race. They were fundamental parts of it. I was part of those technologies from the very beginning and they were absolutely part of the arms race.

  8. #18
    Formula one has had huge impacts on every day cars. I wouldn't call the technology or processes (or cheating) that has gone on there dumb either. In many ways I see it as a similar analagy.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    a lot of this post doesn't have anything worth responding to, because in trying to disagree with me, you actually agree with me all over the place. and/or you simply misunderstand, such as your first bit. laurels? no idea where you got that, lol.

    on two points though i will respond:

    1. it has only ever taken the will to enforce trigger rules, to make guns legal again. there are so many fairly simple paths to this. sound, high speed cam, software/wireless signals, spec board etc etc. sure they all would cost competitors a bit, but respect is earned, not bought. and boards are cheap, and over time reach a standard, it would only take a season or two and everyone would go on thinking its crazy we never did. there is also an easy deterrent system here, demonstrate you can catch it fairly regularly, with a fairly stiff punishment, and it polices itself much better.

    my point is the motive of the league and manufacturers to do this is not there. they loved that era, selling 100 grand in guns a day? shit, who cares right? well, those of us who want the sport to be taken seriously, thats who cares. its shortsightedness really. 100 grand in guns a day for a few years at world cup is nice right, but now where are they? if bob sells a couple hundred grand in a guns a year i bet hes pretty happy. why? because the market died. why did the market die? because on the brink of pushing paintball into a mainsteam Xtreme sport in the 2002-2005 era, we were jerking off. if there was ever a time, enough money, a big enough market, and an interesting enough game format to push for professional respect, it was then. and if you actually make it, instead of skate parks your city puts in to entertain the kids, its paintball fields. instead of being a tiny niche activity thats easy to cut the second things get tough, its important to families and kids. i mean those are just examples but you get my point, if paintball was like lacrosse (a perfect example of how to build a sport), all the paintball companies would be FAR more healthy. or heck if you need a non-sport example, look at blade collecting. another great example of an expensive, "unsafe" thing that is hugely profitable right now. and hey get there by growing the market, into the mainstream.

    we failed to do that. and the damage is probably irreparable at this point.

    it took only the will to keep guns legal, to keep them legal. the powers that be, didn't want that though, $$$$$$$$$ and they screwed there own shots at the big times in doing so.
    Will to do so and actual implementation are and will always be 3 different things. You need 2 major forces to make it happen. 1 is to have a governing body that is willing to stand up and enforce the rules. 2 a way to actually check the equipment. 3 is to have a set standard for everyone to follow. Without those 3 it will be exactly as 15 years ago and people running cheat modes, cheat buttons and super secret codes through their software.

    Have you ever priced out the componets to make a board for a gun? The price goes up the more boards you make. Then you have to have a board that can work with different styles of guns that "could" be used, then it has to be able to fit in each and every gun, as a standard. Not a easy project. Sure ask Virtue or Tadao to make it. Oh wait, they stopped doing it as it was not cost effective anymore.

    Now for the guns and technology. You are stupid and a fool to not think that the guns of tomorrow do not or can not effect the guns selling today. Whether its the perceived notion of a gun being "the best"(closed bolt being more accurate or spiral porting making a more accurate shot) or the fact that a "pro" is using a certain gun and the public wishing to emulating them, or even the progression of a gun line or just maybe the public just the most expensive item cause they can. This was Ford's motto in motor racing. The "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday". Image and marketing can and do play heavily in the sales. If you want to sell, then you better offer the same if not better options than your competitors or you will just fall by the way side and not sell anything anymore.

    As for the game itself, its hard to get a focal point lime any other sport. Baseball, hockey, football(US & the world's version), basketball and countless other sports; the action focuses on 1 ball and the action is around that. In paintball, this isn't so. You can have team A's dorito side making a push, while team B's snake side doing the same. Where are you looking? Generally what is in front of you. And not to mention the bunkers we use, also block out half the field. So its not the game, but more how you show the game. Till someone cracks that mystery, paintball can never be shown so the public can follow it without much explaining...

    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    2. NASCAR is a joke because of that. well, and other reasons, but yeah. i mean NASCAR cheated there own rules so danica could set poll remember? no one takes them seriously already.

    F1 on the other hand, because of its technical rules, breeds some of of the finest, and cleverest, engineering in the world. and it also takes some very fine and clever engineers to figure out what teams are doing, and if its cheating or not. there has to be a significant effort on the part of the league to understand/figure out how folks are cheating and how to catch them. this also requires resources ($$$$). this, has essentially, never happened in paintball. ever. ever.
    Now technology pushes F1 greatly. Look at Audi and their diesel tech with thr R10 & R18 vehicles? Paddle shifters? Racing showed that it can be used to gain milliseconds on gear shifts(not only slightly better for keeping both hands on the steering wheel). Which in turn, came to road cars. That is the same technological advances that are on the same and created the races in the races. Add in that racing teams, scrutinizing the rules to eek out any and every advantage they can. Early rally racing never said you couldn't use 4 wheel drive or more advanced AWD. Audi wanting to showcase their system saw the opening and now look at it. If its not in the rules, then its not cheating, till its banned. Look at the Chaparral cars. The adjustable wing car, semi-automatic transmission and of course the ground effects or sucker car.

    So the progression from mech to electronic gun that could and did fire faster, necessitated the need for better, faster and more reliable feed systems(once again, Thanks Simon ). Now guns can fire faster, lutting more paint down field without or at least less possibilities of a chop. Less chops, more paint shooting; a higher chance of shooting out the other guy.

    Technology is important and should never be stagnant. Predicting where the market will go or 2hat techs could pay off is worth its way in gold.

    So come on, like in Star Wars. Try to "Stay on Target"...

  10. #20
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    FWIW, NASCAR is a joke to F1 fans and probably the "world stage of racing" in general. The NASCAR fans might call open wheel racers wimps who can't have any contact without disintegrating into a billion tiny racecar parts. Kind of like how tournament paintball is a joke to a lot of scenario guys, and hopper fed guns are a joke to some of the magfed guys. The adjustment dialed in to do donuts at the end of the race isn't traction control, it's brake bias. They adjust all of the brake pressure to the forward wheels.

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