PE should make a cure style cocker bolt

[PBSteve]

The closer to it you try to get to a razor tuning the further from you get from reliability. Even still, most every design is still bolt speed dependant. Part of why I really like the GTEK is the repeatability of the bolt speed.

Getting to "razor tuning" while maintaining reliability depends significantly on the type of stability point you've designed your system to have. If it's an unstable equilibrium, sure, if best performance is at a stable equilibrium then I wouldn't even call it "razor tuning", I'd just call it properly designed. The system will tend toward better performance.

Every design will be valve speed dependent. Any design that uses a valve that has to travel to open while the ball is chambered will be. It can be mitigated some by making the valve larger, but it will always be there.

[ironyusa]

What are you calling the system's equilibrium and stability point?

How the valve reacts to breech pressure or a pressure delta and to what extent can be controlled. I'd suggest that directly acting on the valve may not always be ideal. To be clear, we're talking about the valve dwell and mechanical methods of reducing over dwell. Over dwell can be advantageous with regards to consistency.

[PBSteve]

There shouldn't an explicit stability/equilibrium in forces, I was thinking in terms of making the velocity stable, and maximizing efficiency. Probably should have specified that.

[cockerpunk]

if a key problem is bolt speed, being linked to valve dynamics ... that points us towards a closed bolt solution ....

[Lurker27]

You get right the hell out.

[going_home]

You get right the hell out.

Lol

[cockerpunk]

You get right the hell out.

trollololol

in reality it wouldnt have to be a true closed bolt, just independent actions.

[UV Halo]

Any compensation needs to be mechanical to have any shot in hell of increased consistency. If you take a class on controls theory you will see how destructive time delay terms are on your ability to close the control loop of a system. I'm surprised non compensating dump spools are consistent as they are, frankly (though I think the vast majority of users think their gun more consistent than it is)

I also agree with this. One thing I think aside from insufficient sample size, and the inaccuracy of the measurement systems, is that the vast majority of chronos sold for paintball don't confirm shot detection and continue to show an old shot. The chirp feature of the Virtue Clock is the only thing I like about it.

Is the consistency issue a real issue? Iirc somebody did the math and found that a 5 fps drop in velocity resulted in a 2 inch drop of the hit on a target. Or some numbers of similar magnitude.

That might've been me. I had a problem with my Tiberius Arms 9.1 when I switched to the LAPCO/Tiberius Rifled Barrel- I had to crank the gun's reg pretty high up in its adjustment range and the consistency went to crap. Here's the vertical spread associated with a +/- 4.7FPS (St. Dev) from 280FPS:


Here's it again but with a 12.7 (St. Dev):


Oh, and one more thing- First Strike Rounds help greatly with consistency.

[Jack Wood]

To me, I don't think designers lead this market because everything I see suggests that branding and marketing are far more effective than proper design.

Haha, ding ding ding we have a winner

I think that is being a bit disingenuous to some of the people in this thread that work in the industry. And in a way, to the customer too.

This isn't "just" a fashion parade. The product has to work too. Product that doesn't work is very quickly sidelined by the majority of the buying public. I think there is plenty of proof to support that.

[ironyusa]

It's not meant as a jab, but I'd be shocked if you could honestly say that you haven't shelved a good design or modified something to be more marketable. Simon talked about how common this was at empire. I can only speculate that it's how dye operates. It's why Jack Rice is still around. Maybe I could word it better, but the best design can be overshadowed with marketing and the worst design can become prevalent. Of course it assumes a reasonable level of functionality, but that clearly wasn't the point.