Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 22

Thread: Looking for an education in autocockers

  1. #1

    Looking for an education in autocockers

    All,

    As title indicates, I'm in need of some schooling.

    Shot a Resurrection this weekend, and am haunted to the point of wanting very much to buy one, or something Inception.

    However, I know little about the platform beyond the basics of operation, and want to make an informed choice.

    I know that the Ressie is a mid-block, and the Hornet a full body, but apart from the flying back block do not in any respect understand the differences between them, what pros or cons each design has with respect to the other, none of it.

    So help me with the differences between the two general design types.

    1. Is one more adjustable than the other?

    2. Is one more prone to bolt/breech wear than the other?

    3. Is one more smooth in its operation than the other?

    4. Is one more efficient than the other?

    5. Is one more mechanically complex than the other?

    For all of these, if so, how so, and to what degree so?

    And

    6. Presumably the full body is heavier all things equal, but to what degree?


    Sorry for all the questions, but I really am an ignoramus here.

    It's great fun.

  2. #2
    1. No. Cockers all have the same basis of parts, thus all are all the same. Only the oddballs are different.

    2. Breech wear is determined by the bolt material, and the fit.

    3.that depends on the parts used. Using lower quality parts that don't have a good fit, will effect the ahot will have.

    4.el efficiency is determined by the spring combo (valve & hammer spring), which provides a mechanical dwell, the valve and the bolt. Limiting the restrictions of flow, having good paint to barrel match and all the normal things. Things like sweet spotting the regs, and using the IVG (spring tension adjuster) to change velocities, all help turn a cocker based gun into a very efficient gun.

    5. If a cocker follows the same design, but different parts or 0lacement, it is still an auto-cocking pump. That is the basis of it, a self automating pump gun. The sear lug, determines where the hammer is released on the trigger pull, the 4-way switch point is also determined by the trigger point. As i said before, they are a Rube Goldberg machine, ovey complex, but has a mystical attraction. There is a balance of where the parts live & work together but when that balance is upset by either not understanding the symmetry of part interactions, swapping in parts, or the stupidity of the player changing the parts without understanding the 2 former points.

    In a modern ressurection, it is simplified and a lot of the mysticism has been removed. To a point, you set it up, and only slight changes to the LPR are ever needed.

    6. A full body ID FLE weights much less than some half blocks (i assume). Weight and feel are all personal and subjective. Because of at least ID bodied guns, most of the extra meat on there has been removed. But, the biggest factor is also the parts that make up the gun. Stainless parts, brass parts, the regs, the barrels, all those parts really throw in variables that effect the weight. So go with what looks the best.

    I am admittedly an amateur on cockers, no expert. I hope that more people respond to this as cockers can and will be very personal and opinionated.

  3. #3
    Insider imped4now's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    312
    First off, you need to realize that "mid block" and "full body" (ones with back blocks) Autocockers operate identically. One just extends a block beyond the body of the gun to cock the hammer and the other does not. Allow me to further explain:

    Mid block (or any other variant with no back block) - Notice the vertical pull pin the links the bolt and hammer. This pin slides freely (does not act on the hammer at all) in a longitudinal groove in the hammer for about 1" (from the forward position back) and finally catches on a terminal notch in the hammer, thus pulling it back so as to allow the lug to catch on the sear.

    Standard body (or any variant with a back block) - There is no vertical pin linking the bolt and hammer. Instead, the hammer rides along with the back block (linked by the horizontal pin through the block and the bolt). The hammer is moved from its forward position (acting on the valve) to the rearward position by the back block catching the cocking rod (threaded into the hammer).

    The two above systems work in the same manner, ultimately. The back block is the classic method and almost always looks cooler in action, while the half block is the modernized method and is popular due to the fact that there is no more back block coming close to (or hitting) you in the lens. The latter is simply more compact and there are no other functional differences.

    As you may already know, the bolt and hammer operate independently from each other in an Autococker. This is because the Autococker fires from a closed bolt position, meaning that there is a ball in the chamber and the bolt is forward already when the hammer strikes the valve and the paintball is thus fired. Remember, it's a pump gun with an "autococking" system, if that helps you visualize it a bit easier. Does all of that make sense? If not, say so.

    To put it simply, the answer is 'no' to the above questions. There are a million and one different ways to build a cocker and the results and shooting characteristics are numerous. However, none of that really is a function of if there is a back block or not. Theoretically, the half block system has less cycling mass so it will probably have a slightly 'smoother' action, but you won't notice that unless you're shooting at a high rate of fire with an electronic trigger frame/solenoid system.

    Efficiency - the less time the valve is open and the smaller the volume of air used to fire a paintball at X velocity, the more efficient you'll be. This is determined by the valve geometry, springs and hammer. Hammer weight + spring tension and the distance the hammer travels = the kinetic energy it has approaching the valve. Just visualize this system logically and it should make sense.

    From a long-time cocker fan and builder, I honestly cannot recommend a better platform than a standard Resurrection. From the larger 11/16" valve (most 'standard' cockers use 9/16" valves), spring rates, high quality pneumatics, comfortable frame (with T slot, to boot), lightweight body and stretched ergonomics, it's impossible to beat IMO. The only thing it needs is an ID hammer and you'll be good to go. I've got a mostly ID FLE'd Resurrection and it's my favorite mechanical gun of all time, no questions asked....and I just built a complete ID mini FLE standard cocker. It's awesome in its own right but I prefer many things about the Resurrection based gun. If you have any other questions just let us know.
    OlllllllO

  4. #4
    Gents,

    Thank you both. Well, actually, imped4now, I thank you. Nobody, I do not thank you, as you are largely to blame for this.

    I figured the two designs would operate in the same general way, but didn't know if the addition/subtraction of the back block introduced/removed any meaningful complexities into/from the system, or altered in any way how the gun might function or perform (even if only slightly), or how it might be timed/tuned.

    Moreover, one of the biggest concerns is that of wear caused by the bolt and/or other reciprocating parts. Just didn't know (a) if cockers have any reputation for this generally and (b) if one or the other designs has any (dis)advantage in this respect.

    So it seems the answer to both is No.

    In any case my thinking is a scratch-build with all the best ID goodies, and it's now a matter thinking through which one will be more interesting and fun.

    Thanks again, and by all means, come one, come all, and add more to the discussion.

  5. #5
    Insider imped4now's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    312
    Building one from scratch is a blast, isn't cheap and will most certainly result in you gaining an education on the platform. Like I said, I really love my ID'd Resurrection and from a performance (mainly valve) and ergonomic standpoint it's slightly ahead of my recently scratch-built FLE mini. But that FLE mini is beyond cool.

    The FLE mini


    The ID'd FLE Res (with FLE Axe guest appearance)
    OlllllllO

  6. #6
    Beautiful examples all around. Thank you for posting those.

    Probably for the sake of comfort I'll go with a longer platform than the mini.

    And can you say a bit more about the valve?

    I keep hearing about 9/16 vs. 11/16, and the press on the Hornet talks about a "flow optimized valve with rapid closing" with its various advantages.

    Is this valve the standard one that comes in the Ressie, or is it yet another upgrade of Simon's like the hammer and the GTR? Whatever is built, I will plan on putting every ID goody into it from the ground up.

    In any case, why will this valve not fit into the smaller body? Size, presumably?

    Also, just so I understand more of the mechanism involved, is it fair to say that in the old style the ram moves pump arm, which pushes back block, which pulls bolt back to allow feeding and hammer back into cocked position, whereas in the Ressie the ram pushes pump arm which pushes sled, which pulls bolt back to allow feeding and hammer back into cocked position?

    In other words, the sled on the mid block performs the same tasks as the back block on the full body versions?

    It looks like the sled covers over the internals. So basically neither is more prone to getting dirt and junk into the mechanism?

    Thanks again.
    Last edited by Menace; 02-03-2017 at 03:38 PM.

  7. #7
    Hebrews 13:8 going_home's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    563
    I had a Ripper halfblock.

    I had a tough time with the trigger, couldnt get used to it.

    Plus it was an Empire marker (I refuse to own anything GI/Kee/Empire any more).

    Went back to my Automags.

    Good luck with it.
    Last edited by going_home; 02-03-2017 at 07:12 PM.
    endeavor to persevere.......

  8. #8
    Insider imped4now's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    312
    Quote Originally Posted by Menace View Post

    Also, just so I understand more of the mechanism involved, is it fair to say that in the old style the ram moves pump arm, which pushes back block, which pulls bolt back to allow feeding and hammer back into cocked position, whereas in the Ressie the ram pushes pump arm which pushes sled, which pulls bolt back to allow feeding and hammer back into cocked position?

    In other words, the sled on the mid block performs the same tasks as the back block on the full body versions?

    It looks like the sled covers over the internals. So basically neither is more prone to getting dirt and junk into the mechanism?
    Absolutely, positively correct.
    OlllllllO

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by going_home View Post
    I had a Ripper halfblock.

    I had a tough time with the trigger, couldnt get used to it.

    Plus it was an Empire marker (I refuse to own anything GI/Kee/Empire any more).

    Went back to my Automags.

    Good luck with it.
    It was more the player, not the gun.

    Also it was a Simon Stevens design and by going through Inception Designs, you bypass any association with Empire.

    Henry Ford was an anti-semite and supported (to a point) Nazi Germany, does that mean you have to stop driving your Ford? Get over it Allen.

  10. #10
    Hebrews 13:8 going_home's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    563
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    It was more the player, not the gun.

    Also it was a Simon Stevens design and by going through Inception Designs, you bypass any association with Empire.

    Henry Ford was an anti-semite and supported (to a point) Nazi Germany, does that mean you have to stop driving your Ford? Get over it Allen.

    You couldnt be more wrong Doug.

    When he makes a full marker thats not a pump or cocker I'll likely buy one.

    It was all Empire except one part.

    Good luck with all that rhetoric.


    endeavor to persevere.......

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •