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Thread: OT: Politics

  1. #1371
    Quote Originally Posted by Lurker27 View Post
    I should have been more explicit: any party that can be characterized well by a one dimensional political continuum is assured of failure in a heavily polarized 2 party system.

    A disruptive party would have to be constructed largely on policies that are orthogonal to our political axis, e.g. campaign finance reform
    i think there was probably more consensus on campaign finance reform being perpendicular to the left/right line a few years ago ... but i think in the era of trump, my bet is that campaign finance reform is likely a lot closer to left/right. mostly because trump being a "successful businessman" and "a billionaire" is so often used to justify his supposed intellect.

    i mean that assumes that folks using that argument actually believe it. it might be another conservative argument used to justify power, not process.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  2. #1372
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    literally every GOP position can be based, at its core, on racism. or sexism, but thats a different post.

    they don't care that the GOP is racking up massive debt, because its not being paid to brown people. its being paid to white, rich, assholes like themselves. government spending, they love it. when its on white rich dudes. government picking winners and losers? oh they love that too, when government picks white rich dudes to win. the only time the deficit is a problem, is when its money being spent on brown people. now all of sudden its a crisis that needs solving, typically by giving more money to white rich dudes.

    its all just racism. no really. all of it.
    i believe locking children in up in concentration camps is evil. and anyone who supports such behavior is evil.

    it is not good versus good. we have very real, very evil portions of our society dragging us towards fascism.

    if there is one blessing of the trump administration, its shown me who i simply disagree with on political philosophy, and who, truly, is a garbage human being. they are not the same, but the trump administration gives us a true litmus test. if you support putting children in concentration camps, you are a garbage human being. if you don't support raising the minimum wage, we just disagree on political grounds.
    you are factually incorrect. obama is not the source of our current child concentration camps. that is simply factually, incorrect.
    The policy was unique to the Trump administration.
    Then:

    the conversation switched from if what trump was doing was the same or not, to the dodge argument of if what trump was doing was forced on him or not.
    The conversation started with you stating the GOP made all of their policy because of racism, with no proof but opinion. When pressed you stated Trump is evil because you believe that he is the one locking children up, and that he did it based on racist policy. You stated Obama didn't do it. You stated Trump started it.

    The dodge here is you not accepting that Trump didn't put into affect the child separation policy, which were in your opinion proof that his policies are racist.

    We showed that Trump didn't make those policies, and hence your proof of racism is negated.

    In the end Gordon, the dodge in still in your court. You cannot support your 'The Moon is Cheese' claim that the GOP is driven by racist policy using the children at the borders comment, because what you used as a supporting argument was a false claim. You were never able to find support that his policies even created the separation, because that was written by other laws and was in affect before Trump was president.

    He doesn't have a time machine Gordon.
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  3. #1373
    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    Then:



    The conversation started with you stating the GOP made all of their policy because of racism, with no proof but opinion. When pressed you stated Trump is evil because you believe that he is the one locking children up, and that he did it based on racist policy. You stated Obama didn't do it. You stated Trump started it.

    The dodge here is you not accepting that Trump didn't put into affect the child separation policy, which were in your opinion proof that his policies are racist.

    We showed that Trump didn't make those policies, and hence your proof of racism is negated.

    In the end Gordon, the dodge in still in your court. You cannot support your 'The Moon is Cheese' claim that the GOP is driven by racist policy using the children at the borders comment, because what you used as a supporting argument was a false claim. You were never able to find support that his policies even created the separation, because that was written by other laws and was in affect before Trump was president.

    He doesn't have a time machine Gordon.
    i never stated trump was evil because he is the one locking children up, or that it was due to racist policy. i never stated obama didn't do any family separation. i did not state that trump started it.

    after such an extensive search of my posts, i assume the reason you didn't quote me on these things, was because you couldn't find them. and have to assert them without quotes. because i never said any of it. you don't even grasp my argument.


    trump changed enforcement of a pretty standard, normal law enforcement detainment policy, to one that is purposefully harsh and fundamentally evil. then he changed it back after the backlash. this demonstrates two major things #1. that trump can change enforcement policy, and that #2. there are major and significant differences in obama and trump enforcement policies.



    i have supported, and continue to support the assertion that GOP policy is based on racism, and immigration is actually a perfect example as we have already discussed in this thread several times. any capitalist knows that immigration is a huge boost to the economy, and that free movement of labor is one of the fundamental tenants of capitalism. so how are a bunch of self-labeled capitalists against immigration? because of racism. no one claiming to a capitalist should be against immigration. study after study agrees. it really is, at its core, just racism.
    Last edited by cockerpunk; 11-16-2018 at 11:37 AM.
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  4. #1374
    Insider PBSteve's Avatar
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    Well, at least this is a step in the right direction.

    https://www.npr.org/2018/11/16/66855...-the-civil-war

  5. #1375
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    It's so pervasive it reaches the most common places.

    Four white women from the Memphis suburb of Cordova, Tennessee, conducted a social experiment after a group of Black teenagers were targeted by Wolfchase Galleria*s alleged *No Hoodie* policy last week.

    Sherry Ennis and her three friends saw the viral video captured by former Journalist Kevin McKenzie, of four young Black men being thrown out of the Memphis mall on Nov. 3 for supposedly violating its code of conduct policy by wearing hoodies in the mall. One of the young men was even arrested within moments of the incident. The women decided to challenge the policy by wearing hoodies to the same mall to bring light to racial profiling.

    *We pulled them up on occasions and we were approached very politely and asked to remove them * that it was obscuring our identities, so we took them down,* said Ennis.

    The local news station contacted the mall to get their view on the women*s social experiment. *We are still waiting on the mall to explain why the women were not forced out of the store as the teenagers were,* said the news anchor.

    The four Black men who were thrown out of the mall never once wore their hoodies over their heads when they were told to leave according to McKenzie.
    https://atlantablackstar.com/2018/11...jy-TC-XdQRKFYw

    If you start paying attention, you realize things like this happen on an hourly basis across the country.
    Ever so many citizens of this republic think they ought to believe that the Universe is a monarchy, and therefore they are always at odds with the republic. -Alan Watts

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  6. #1376
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    You said every policy is based on racism. Every single one.

    i never stated trump was evil because he is the one locking children up, or that it was due to racist policy.
    I used your words - you stated an absolute. "its all just racism. no really. all of it." So yes, you did. Several times. So this 'Never Stated' stuff is bullshit Gordon. Bullshit.

    You also said: "i believe locking children in up in concentration camps is evil. and anyone who supports such behavior is evil. " So locking children up is evil, and supporting that is evil. Hence, in the action of doing 'it', locking up kids separate from their parents as you allege Trump is responsible for, was Trump doing evil or not? If it was, then you are stating he is doing evil. But it was not, then you contradict it when you stated:

    trump changed enforcement of a pretty standard, normal law enforcement detainment policy, to one that is purposefully harsh and fundamentally evil. then he changed it back after the backlash.
    So, you just said it again. It seem like you are not even cognoscenti of what you even write, as you are writing it. You are very clear though - Trump did Evil by separating kids from their parents at the border. You also state Trump is responsible for it.

    Okay, what exactly did he do in that change? Your statement, as I quoted, states the motive is racism, that is clear. It also states that the, your words, 'Concentration camps' and separation of kids happened because of Trump. What in the law did he change?

    Now, you state the act of separating kids from their parents is evil - ignoring the reason for the separation might actually be to the kids benefit. Lets totally sidestep that, and the history behind that, and the laws. Because that also invalidates your point.

    YOU state, several times, that Trump changed enforcement. HOW did he? WHAT EXACTLY CHANGED?

    Was there any separation of children before Trump's EO or Session's Policy? Yes.
    Did he change the laws concerning when to separate the parent from the child July 2018? No.
    Did he change the policy on how kids are treated before July 2018? No.

    Lets just be straight on this.

    ALL Trump did is set a zero tolerance policy to hopefully reduce the amount of family's coming across the border.

    But in no way did he, nor could he really, change the separation law much from what it was under Obama. The same factors applied. The difference in ONLY in the percentage of people prosecuted. The reasoning for the law was to work as a deterrent. And it did. After he stated he would change in July 2018, removing the separation of children as best he legally could, making it less evil by your statement, than it was before he became president, more families rushed the border:

    Illegal immigration by parents traveling with children hit an all-time high in September as thousands of families continued to pour across the southwest border, capping a record-setting year for family migration.

    A total of 16,658 people traveling in family units were arrested by the Border Patrol at the southwest border in September, according to unpublished Customs and Border Protection (CBP) figures obtained by The Washington Post.

    That was the highest single-month total on record and an 80 percent increase over July*s total. The September figures follow a record-setting August, which saw 12,774 people in family units arrested at the border, the highest ever total for that month. (RELATED: Illegal Immigration By Family Units Surges To August Record)

    For all of fiscal year 2018, more than 107,000 people in family units members were arrested, shattering the previous high of 77,857 set in 2016.

    The summer deluge of family migration has come in the three months since President Donald Trump ended family separations at the southwest border. Over that period, large groups of families, mostly from Central America, have crossed the border or arrived at ports of entry to petition for asylum.

    The Trump administration has attributed the surge to loopholes in immigration law that prevent the government from holding adults and their children in detention together while their cases are heard in immigration court. Administration officials say the restrictions encourage parents to bring children across the border because they know they will be released for the duration of their immigration proceedings, which can take years.

    The administration in April tried to create a deterrent to family migration through a *zero tolerance* policy, in which all adults crossing the border with children in tow were prosecuted for unlawful entry. The policy led to the separation of about 2,500 children from their parents, sparking outrage among immigration activists and civil rights groups.

    Trump ended the practice in June amid public outcry, while a court order forced the administration to reunify most of the families that had been separated during the zero-tolerance period. Today, most illegal immigrant families caught at the border are released pending a court date unless there are aggravating circumstances such as suspected child abuse or drug smuggling.

    Reports of record-setting family migration come as a caravan of about 2,000 migrants is making its way northward from Honduras, with the aim of reaching the U.S. border. It is the second such procession this year, after a similar group marched from Central America all the way to U.S. ports of entry in April.
    The reason for tough family enforcement was to discourage families from coming to the border. This policy was put in place by Obama, and it actually reduced family travel to the border. Trump increased the level of enforcement, but not the manner in which children were treated. You state the treatment is evil, but associate the level of enforcement with the treatment. Those are different issues you conflate.

    When it was softened, a lot more families flooded to the border, putting their kids at risk. This is exactly what Obama was trying to stop.

    But hey, lets see if you can fight your own words again Gordon.

    You started this saying every policy is based on racism.
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  7. #1377
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    http://www.wmcactionnews5.com/2018/1...hoodie-policy/

    The security guards were black.

    McKenzie shot the incident Saturday evening with his cell phone. It all started when McKenzie says when he saw a mall security guard watching a group of young men at the mall who were told to leave the mall.

    "I stepped up to him and I said why and he said the hoodie policy,* McKenzie said.

    McKenzie said the young men came back, saying they had rights. One of them was arrested.
    Context helps. The Mall is private property. They can eject anybody for most any reason they feel. Just like your business or property should be able to. If that person comes back, well, they will get escorted off the property by a nice police officer with cuffs.

    The Mall already had grief hoisted on them for the original incident, so they acted differently with the other group who wore hoodies. If the women had been escorted off the property for not removing the hoodies from their head, then came back and stated 'they have rights' guess what - they would have been escorted off with a nice police escort also.

    How you act on a property, how you respond to the property owners wishes and the police has a lot to do with the result of this incident.
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  8. #1378
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post

    The security guards were black.
    Has literally nothing to do with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    Context helps. The Mall is private property. They can eject anybody for most any reason they feel. Just like your business or property should be able to.
    Protected classes aren't imaginary, and no, you can't eject someone based on race.

    If you read the article you'd know the men never put their hoodies on.

  9. #1379
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    Josh's response is actually a perfect example of "individual liberty" libertarians in action. It sounds noble, but at the end of the day the goal is to give people permission for racial bigotry.

  10. #1380
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    This is what Gerrymandering looks like, and what Republicans interpret as a "mandate" from the voters.


    https://isthmus.com/news/news/dems-s...d-in-assembly/

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