OT: Politics

[pbjosh]

The Wiki you quoted shows only 24% ownership in Switzerland. Not 100+%

That was privately owned and permitted by citizens. The state issued firearm possession and access are higher, with the majority of the nation having access and mandatory training. The rifle ownership is as high as 70% of the population. It is how they parse it.

Same graph from the same website. There isn't a 50% reduction in gun related homicides in this chart.

Ah, easy misunderstanding: I am using Per Capita ratios - not gross. With a larger population comes higher numbers.

I see closer to 60% reduction over the same period (same website, same time period) in Australia

Total gun deaths by guns vs homicide by guns. Lots of those are suicides (and in the US, most of those are suicides also). They did have a decrease in suicides also, IIRC, a benefit of reducing gun ownership in the population, yes.

[pbjosh]

im a dirty liberal, and even i find switzerlands gun control laws are draconian.

But their training is really high - it is considered a good gun culture, which I like. Coming from one, I do get a bit nervous around some of my 'gun toting liberal' friends.

[Laku]

i love when gun folks talk about switzerland, which has possibly the strictest gun control of any country on earth, as an example to disprove the effectiveness of gun control.

im a dirty liberal, and even i find switzerlands gun control laws are draconian.

I'm pretty sure Japan has way stricter gun laws? But that's not to say switzerland's laws aren't strict compared to US.

[Laku]

But their training is really high - it is considered a good gun culture, which I like.

Are you referring to the conscription military service model switzerland has?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscr...in_Switzerland

[Jack Wood]

And another take on it:

http://www.mintpressnews.com/the-fac...ontrol/207152/



Now, I would like to see some counter argument on this (links please guys) but the no real affect is pretty much what I have seen.

Those figures are for homicides. Not homicide by gun.
Death by gun per 100,000 capita - http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/co...100_000_people

Or in total http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/co..._of_gun_deaths

Unfortunately the latter only starts at 1996 so hard to see much before that.

Regardless, though, the UK has NEVER been a gun-owning country. It has always been virtually impossible to own a handgun or rifle of any kind. The only time I have ever seen a handgun in the UK was as a teenager when my best friends dad showed us a couple of his collection that he had "appropriated" during his time in the SAS. We just never had the same level of gun ownership, full-stop, that the US has. Banning them was always going to have a minimal effect as they were never in circulation in any number.

[pbjosh]

Not really - just the gun culture in general, with high knowledge and training of firearms. It takes away the mystery and add a large amount of respect for firearms.

I see a lot of people not respecting them at all while using them, along with a lot of people who are afraid of them with no real rational experience. But then, it was normal for one of us to carry the 45-70 when we were big enough to shoot it. Well, maybe not quite big enough. But we could use it if we had to.

[pbjosh]

Regardless, though, the UK has NEVER been a gun-owning country. It has always been virtually impossible to own a handgun or rifle of any kind. The only time I have ever seen a handgun in the UK was as a teenager when my best friends dad showed us a couple of his collection that he had "appropriated" during his time in the SAS. We just never had the same level of gun ownership, full-stop, that the US has. Banning them was always going to have a minimal effect as they were never in circulation in any number.

That is about what I expected.

Even then, banning here in the US or most anywhere would have a 'minimal' effect it seems. And the culture doesn't seem to support much of the gang culture we have generated.

Those figures are for homicides. Not homicide by gun.

Right. The point with that usage was to show Homicide levels are not changed by having firearms vs not having them. That people will precipitate evil however they can, and fire arms or not, that doesn't change the rate. The change is in the culture, as they civilize, and reject homicide as a solution.

That is not driven much by gun ownership or not. Both sides are basically wrong - people still will kill at the same rate whither they have access to firearms or not, based on their culture.

And murder is still illegal, most everywhere. Banned even more than guns.

[Laku]

Both sides are basically wrong - people still will kill at the same rate whither they have access to firearms or not, based on their culture.

And murder is still illegal, most everywhere. Banned even more than guns.

Wouldn't the point be that it will be harder to inflict mass carnage on the level that one can do with guns? Thus reduce the amount of deaths.

Not to mention that successful suicide rate would drop, as shown in some statistics.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7980671.html
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4984734/

In any case I suspect that Jack is right on the assumption that you guys have let the amount of guns to spiral so far out of control that it would probably take decades to see results even if you were to ban all firearms.

What really stumped me was when I ran into this article about how ATF tracks guns is how moronic the system seems to be, if even half of it is true.
https://www.gq.com/story/inside-fede...-too-many-guns

[evil_racecocker]

Hey Jack, I thought I had read that in the UK Rimfire rifles (22lr, 17hmr, 22wmr) were legal to own? I manufacturer firearms (legally) as a hobby and side business, so you can guess where my opinions lie. Growing up I had my grandfather teach me gun safety and how to shoot at a young age. I had a hard time shooting my first deer, and fully believe it helped me learn the value of life. We learned how to shoot and gun safety in Boy Scouts also. When I was in High School, and hunting season rolled around 90% of all the trucks had a rifle or two in the back window. I'm only 35 so it really wasn't that long ago. We never had a problem at our school, and everyone I knew respected firearms and the value of life. What I feel is part of the problem, is the younger generations lack of person to person interactions, and getting their firearm knowledge form video games, media, internet.

[cockerpunk]

people still will kill at the same rate whither they have access to firearms or not, based on their culture.

And murder is still illegal, most everywhere. Banned even more than guns.

this is like arguing that the army would be equally effective without guns, as with guns.

and you'd have ot be a fucking idiot to think that less people will die when you make weapons less lethal.