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Thread: OT: Politics

  1. #861
    Insider PBSteve's Avatar
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    Because the 14th explicitly contrasts citizens with persons, that's exactly how the 14th reads. The only constitutional rights originally limited to citizens are voting, holding public office, and (maybe) bearing arms.

    https://reason.com/volokh/2018/06/25...-for-the-presi

    http://www.learnliberty.org/blog/t-h...f-noncitizens/

    In-depth: http://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/facpub/297
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  2. #862
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBSteve View Post
    Rights enumerated in the Constitution are explicitly extended to all persons within the territory.
    Quote Originally Posted by PBSteve View Post
    Because the 14th explicitly contrasts citizens with persons, that's exactly how the 14th reads. The only constitutional rights originally limited to citizens are voting, holding public office, and (maybe) bearing arms.
    Your 1st statement still doesn't read correctly. I also misstated what "rights" are extended. When I said, "rights are reserved for citizens," I should have said, "some rights are reserved specifically for citizens."

    Your second post does clarify, so I know we're on the same page but I just wanted to correct the semantics.

    Quote Originally Posted by ironyusa View Post
    It also doesn't mean that all citizenship rights are afforded to the undocumented immigrants. We agree on this, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by PBSteve View Post
    But no, they should not (and can't) collect SSI or Medicaid benefits. Even though they generally pay into them.
    So, I do think we're in agreement so far. SSI, medicaid, welfare?, public office including federal jobs, right to bear arms?, voting, etc are all excluded. Now, there is a bit of a cascade off of that... because they cannot obtain a driver's license there are many violations that result. Take a look at the recently unblocked Texas SB4. Nothing you've said so far suggests you'd be opposed, however, I suspect you will be and I'd like to understand why.

    I honestly don't have a strong opinion, but rather have seen the tremendous tax burden particularily on state schools caused by the families of undocumented immigrants. https://itep.org/undocumented-immigr...ntributions-2/ The site I linked is obviously biased, but if you look specifically at Texas there is a $1.7 billion dollar tax deficit (State and Local Taxes if Granted Full Legal Status -column). That is what should be added to the state operating budget for state programs such as education. I don't see a way around the fact that it creates a need for a higher taxation on citizens to make up the difference. So, illegal immigration does create a real problem aside from things like uninsured motorist. In Texas, there is upwards of 14% of motorists that are uninsured, which carries another financial burden less obvious than direct taxation.

    So these are problems. I said before that I have observations, not answers. What is a way, other than Trump's deportation, to deal with this?

  3. #863
    Quote Originally Posted by ironyusa View Post
    Your 1st statement still doesn't read correctly. I also misstated what "rights" are extended. When I said, "rights are reserved for citizens," I should have said, "some rights are reserved specifically for citizens."

    Your second post does clarify, so I know we're on the same page but I just wanted to correct the semantics.




    So, I do think we're in agreement so far. SSI, medicaid, welfare?, public office including federal jobs, right to bear arms?, voting, etc are all excluded. Now, there is a bit of a cascade off of that... because they cannot obtain a driver's license there are many violations that result. Take a look at the recently unblocked Texas SB4. Nothing you've said so far suggests you'd be opposed, however, I suspect you will be and I'd like to understand why.

    I honestly don't have a strong opinion, but rather have seen the tremendous tax burden particularily on state schools caused by the families of undocumented immigrants. https://itep.org/undocumented-immigr...ntributions-2/ The site I linked is obviously biased, but if you look specifically at Texas there is a $1.7 billion dollar tax deficit (State and Local Taxes if Granted Full Legal Status -column). That is what should be added to the state operating budget for state programs such as education. I don't see a way around the fact that it creates a need for a higher taxation on citizens to make up the difference. So, illegal immigration does create a real problem aside from things like uninsured motorist. In Texas, there is upwards of 14% of motorists that are uninsured, which carries another financial burden less obvious than direct taxation.

    So these are problems. I said before that I have observations, not answers. What is a way, other than Trump's deportation, to deal with this?
    a path to citizenship/tax paying status. if people want to come here, don't break ANY laws, and want to be gainfully employed here, and raise children here ... let them. if the only crime they committed, was walking across a boarder, or overstaying a visa ... really, we have actual problems to solve here people. this isn't one of them.

    if conservatives weren't so fucking stupid they realize that immigration is 100% free market capitalism in action, and fuels the economy.

    then again, when was the last time conservatives gave a rats ass about capitalism over racism? lol they only liked capitalism when it supports racism.
    Last edited by cockerpunk; 08-31-2018 at 10:04 AM.
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  4. #864
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    Is there any case study on what that unchecked immigration policy would do with regards to saturation of the labor market? Anecdotally, I'd suspect that it'd drive unemployment up. That's a purely capitalistic counter-argument.

    edit: Republicans in Texas also have to know that it's political suicide to do that. It would swing the voter base significantly. Political survival is another motivator outside of racism.
    Last edited by ironyusa; 08-31-2018 at 10:13 AM.

  5. #865
    Quote Originally Posted by ironyusa View Post
    Is there any case study on what that unchecked immigration policy would do with regards to saturation of the labor market? Anecdotally, I'd suspect that it'd drive unemployment up. That's a purely capitalistic counter-argument.

    edit: Republicans in Texas also have to know that it's political suicide to do that. It would swing the voter base significantly. Political survival is another motivator outside of racism.
    how, on what earth, will immigration lead to unemployment?

    that would mean there would be no economic incentive to immigrate. so the problem solves itself. as long as there is economic incentive to immigrate, then immigration will drive the economy. if there is no an economic incentive to immigrate, then it will drive unemployment. since the reason for the immigration is currently economic ... that means it will drive the economy. this is the free movement of labor clause of capitalism in action. labor can and should love freely to areas of higher economic potential, and away from areas of less potential. anything else is inefficiency. again, this is capitalism 101 level shit.

    i remember a case study, cant find it right now, that essentially the entire economic growth of texas can be chalked up to immigration.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  6. #866
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    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    how, on what earth, will immigration lead to unemployment?
    Why do we outsource? Cheaper global labor. Are immigrant workers paid equally given an equal level of talent? No, they are compensated on the low-end of the scale. Cheaper domestic labor. Globally, the US wage rate, even on the lower-end of the spectrum, is quite high. Thus, the global incentive to immigrate has a lower threshold than the economic threshold of the domestic wage rate. Add to that, currently immigrant workers send $450 billion of wages out of the country. That is money NOT stimulating the US economy. Please explain how the labor saturation will not drive wages down. Supply goes up. Because of the global offset in wage rates, how do we forecast market equalibrium and the total economic adjustment?

    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    i remember a case study, cant find it right now, that essentially the entire economic growth of texas can be chalked up to immigration.
    If you find it, I'd like to see that. Most of the growth in Dallas area has been a migration of corporate headquarters to the area.
    Last edited by ironyusa; 08-31-2018 at 12:51 PM.

  7. #867
    Quote Originally Posted by ironyusa View Post
    Why do we outsource? Cheaper global labor. Are immigrant workers paid equally given an equal level of talent? No, they are compensated on the low-end of the scale. Cheaper domestic labor. Globally, the US wage rate, even on the lower-end of the spectrum, is quite high. Thus, the global incentive to immigrate has a lower threshold than the economic threshold of the domestic wage rate. Add to that, currently immigrant workers send $450 billion of wages out of the country. That is money NOT stimulating the US economy. Please explain how the labor saturation will not drive wages down. Supply goes up. Because of the global offset in wage rates, how do we forecast market equalibrium and the total economic adjustment?



    If you find it, I'd like to see that. Most of the growth in Dallas area has been a migration of corporate headquarters to the area.
    you are trying to analyze it based on a misguided single entity.

    if there is more money to be made by increasing the labor force -> thats the entire reason to hire workers at all -> then GDP will rise if more workers are employed -> then immigration will drive GDP growth -> GDP growth from employment will drive demand up -> which will drive employment -> higher employment rate drives higher wages -> higher wages drives more demand -> more demand drives higher employment

    this is "a growing economy" in econ 101. immigration grows the economy. the only way that isn't possible, if if the immigration is not being driven by economic desires ... which, in the USA, it is being driven by economic desires. immigration will grow the economy. period.

    there is no economic argument to made based on capitalism, that immigration is bad. this i why the free movement of labor is economics 101.
    Last edited by cockerpunk; 08-31-2018 at 01:50 PM.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  8. #868
    Quote Originally Posted by ironyusa View Post
    Add to that, currently immigrant workers send $450 billion of wages out of the country. That is money NOT stimulating the US economy.
    You can argue that with easier legal immigration, the personal income being sent out of the country (presumably from working adults in the US to their families outside the US) will decrease as these workers bring their families to the US.

    And do you have a source for that figure? It seems high.

    edit: Based on this document:
    https://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/...ll_pe_2009.pdf
    an estimated illegal immigrant population of 10.8 million in 2009 and your figure of $450 billion, the average illegal immigrant is sending about $42k out of the country every year.
    Last edited by tyronejk; 08-31-2018 at 02:37 PM.

  9. #869
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyronejk View Post
    You can argue that with easier legal immigration, the personal income being sent out of the country (presumably from working adults in the US to their families outside the US) will decrease as these workers bring their families to the US.

    And do you have a source for that figure? It seems high.

    edit: Based on this document:
    https://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/...ll_pe_2009.pdf
    an estimated illegal immigrant population of 10.8 million in 2009 and your figure of $450 billion, the average illegal immigrant is sending about $42k out of the country every year.
    I'm sorry, I misread the article. That was total global remittance (granted I checked the original source and it was conservative and never used the word "global" instead just referred to immigrant workers.)

    Just the US portion of that is $138,165,000,000 taken from here: http://www.pewglobal.org/interactives/remittance-map/

  10. #870
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironyusa View Post
    So, I do think we're in agreement so far. SSI, medicaid, welfare?, public office including federal jobs, right to bear arms?, voting, etc are all excluded. Now, there is a bit of a cascade off of that... because they cannot obtain a driver's license there are many violations that result. Take a look at the recently unblocked Texas SB4. Nothing you've said so far suggests you'd be opposed, however, I suspect you will be and I'd like to understand why.
    The only three of those that are constitutionally excluded are the right to vote, the right to hold office, and the right to bear arms. The rest of the Constitution and bill of rights (read: the vast majority of rights) applies to anyone in the territory and subject to our laws. That means rights to property, due process, equal treatment under the law, etc.

    When the people charged with keeping the peace pose a threat to people reporting violent crime in a community you can pretty much assume people will stop calling the cops.

    Kind of seems like a basic humanity thing to protect people from violence.
    Last edited by PBSteve; 09-01-2018 at 02:03 PM.
    Ever so many citizens of this republic think they ought to believe that the Universe is a monarchy, and therefore they are always at odds with the republic. -Alan Watts

    I work for the company building the Paragon

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