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Thread: OT: Politics

  1. #961
    Quote Originally Posted by Lurker27 View Post
    Thanks, Machiavelli! I don't disagree with you on the diagnosis, but I think the political left should be more willing to fight fire with fire.
    and yet you are unhappy that i call a racist policy or set of policies racist ....

    your damn right we should fight fire with fire.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  2. #962
    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    Never said racism isn't problem. You can't even reply without a straw man, can you? Come on, bet you have an Ad Hom just waiting in the wings.

    I said it is not a large portion of the population, which is factually correct. It is not gone, but compared to most of the world, and most of history, it is nearly nonexistent. There has been so much growth culturally on this subject in the last few decades compared to thousands of years of known history, yet you can't even comprehend it, can you? Just have to pull out complete falsehoods that have no context or facts to back it up. It really is sad. You are intelligent. But the disconnect is very large.

    A person should be celebrating the growth that has has happened in the last couple of generation, instead of still calling people names they do not deserve, in deliberate contrast to who they are, and how much they have grown.

    That you believe it is shows your disconnect from reality. And your demonization of those who are out of your tribe. That is all this is. Bashing the non believers. Calling them names. Being an ass in front of your group of like minded bullies. Hunt down the witch and kill her. Because you believe.

    All you have is a slur. A troll. Most places would have....wait, have, kicked your ass out. For this very same reason.

    You are not speaking a truth. You are simply wrong. Again. The art of reflection nary pauses to furrow your brow. You puff up your chest and repeat the stupid.

    Golf clap to all of you.

    Good day.
    1. i never ad homed you with racism. i said all of GOP policies are based in racism.
    2. this is still not evidence against my claim. im sorry, in order to defend yourself, your going to have to show that GOP policies are not based on racism.
    Last edited by cockerpunk; 10-23-2018 at 05:05 PM.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  3. #963
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    " i never ad homed you with racism."
    And I said you probably had a good one ready, but hadn't used it yet. Reading comprehension, you should try it sometime.

    As for the rest of your fallacy - You just said it is, but never proved it. You brought ZERO EVIDENCE BEYOND YOUR OPINION. There is nothing to refute but your word. You could have at least linked to Huffpo or Vox or Slate or something. Or maybe Farrakhan. Something.

    I have nothing to disprove. I might as well shout "GOD! That's why!" and just win the argument like that.

    God bless Gordon, have a wonderful day. I am done for now.
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  4. #964
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    I think the GOP isn't serving racists, it's USING the racist tendency of their electorate to advance what is largely aplatform of crony capitalism. The policies themselves aren't generally racist, though they do disproportionately benefit the rich.

    Tax policy, defense spending, dismantling environmental regulations. . . hard for these policies to be racist prima facie IMO
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  5. #965
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBSteve View Post
    I love that this conversation revolves around "I'm not denying that the country is rife with racism, it's just unpopular to suggest addressing it."
    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    You obviously read the 140 page document in 30 minutes or so, because you drew exactly the opposite conclusion from it.
    You caught me, I was at work.

    Still haven't read it in its entirety, but what I've gotten in the "key takeaways" doesn't contradict anything I said. In fact it seems to confirm it; most people know race issues are real but don't want to address them because they're afraid or tired of it. Yeah, you're going to admit you've benefited from systems of oppression. It's going to be difficult.

    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh
    I think the report highlights exactly why your commentary on here, and Steve's, IS the problem. It is mean spirited and comes from such a myopic position that you don't realize you are insulting and degrading the vast majority of the 'Exhausted middle' like myself who really tire of what is total crap shoot bullshit.
    I'm so sorry you're tired. It must be exhausting to read about the oppression other people experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    I said it is not a large portion of the population, which is factually correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    You brought ZERO EVIDENCE BEYOND YOUR OPINION.
    Uh yeah, you're going to have to cite that "factually correct" statement.

    ....

    This whole thing is pretty interesting. Socially I'll admit I'm borderline radical left, I think it's only proper for me to acknowledge the immense advantages I've had in my life. Sure I've worked hard to get where I am, but I've also had an immense amount of (sometimes unwarranted) help from other people. I can admit it. I'm a bit racist and slightly misogynist, but I'm working on it. Seems strange that's radical.

    On the other side of the coin, I'm pretty economically centrist. The healthcare and housing crises are the result of bipartisan agreement on how the middle and upper middle class can screw everyone else over; be it through the mortgage interest tax deduction, employer sponsored health care exclusion, or any of the mountain of NIMBYism from coast to coast. Democrats are just as guilty as Republicans on all of these issues.

    Fighting "fire with fire" just means kowtowing to the affluent majority, who are historically responsible for the mess we're in. Ensuring the comfort of the majority (or your electorate) does not ensure a just society.

    ....

    At any rate, I'll leave you with a quote from MLK, since everyone wants protest "In the spirit of Dr. King".

    Quote Originally Posted by MLK
    First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."
    Josh, you're a white moderate.
    Last edited by PBSteve; 10-24-2018 at 01:33 AM.
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  6. #966
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    I'm so sorry you're tired. It must be exhausting to read about the oppression other people experience.
    Again, try the reading comprehension thing I mentioned to Gordon. There was a whole chapter on the Exhausted Moderate, in truth that is what the report was about. Did you skim by that? It seems you did, only picking up those things that cover your bias, missing the reason for this report to exist. It was written to find out what was causing the extreme split in our politics today. The problem? The Radical Left 8% who are white, successful, and playing identity politics, with a media that falls in the same mold.

    Factually Correct:

    Here, let me use pictures:



    In this, America is one of the least racist nations in the world. Flat out. About equal to Canada. Got it? Most likely no, since I have used all of these links before as we ad nauseam repeat this same dog and pony show and you ignore facts. But hey, 'everybody is racist' is your religion. Not mine. I don't have a sacred dogma about every one being racist, I just have a these inconvenient truths.

    Now this shows the rapid decline of a lot of views like same sex marriage and related that have dropped. IN some cases, they have dropped off the questionnaire due to a lack of people responding to the question.

    "In 1972, *fewer than 15% of whites nationwide thought that black and white children should attend separate schools. That fell below 10% by the early 1980s. By 1985, so few people endorsed the segregationist response that the GSS dropped this item.*


    In the end, most of the racists white people (since that seems to be the only metric, there is not a lot of research done on any other race being racist in america) are old, white and in the south, and lean conservative. They are dying off. Here is what Wa Post had to say about the amount of white nationalist and the alt right:

    There is a curious historical consistency to those estimates. In 2005, David Duke held a *European American conference* in New Orleans, which, according to the Anti-Defamation League, attracted *over 300 white supremacists.* Which can also be translated as *fewer than 400.*

    The meager numbers are a far cry from the days when the Ku Klux Klan could attract 200,000 people to a rally in Kokomo, Ind., in 1923. True, it*s likely that each of those Charlottesville torchbearers represented others who wanted to march but didn*t. Yet even a sizable multiplier still suggests an insignificant portion of the population. Imagine 100 like-minded people for every attendee; imagine 200; imagine 1,000. You*re still looking at less than 0.1 percent of the U.S. population.
    Like Ryan alluded to, there isn't enough people to support the GOP basing everything on race. There are simply not enough racists.

    Ben Shapiro is the biggest fighter of the Alt Right. He was before Trump was elected. His estimate was 1,600 people. Even if you multiply that by a factor of 100, it still is less than a percent.

    You have made a boogeyman out of the shadow of a stick.

    But then, the left has called Trees, Milk, Science, Math, camo, lucky charms, showing up on time, and babies to all be racist. Plus many more. So maybe the problem isn't the right being racist - but the left seeing racism behind every tree. Literally.

    MLK:

    If we are going to use 1960's definitions, then maybe you will have to accept that the 1960s racists were the democrat party. Mind you, this man was conservative and a man of God. And it was the 1960s. In that case, you need to eat some Jim Crow. The Republicans were the ones who both let them vote and did the Civil Rights act. Dontchaknow.

    How about trying someone who is alive NOW? Seeped in current events? And maybe one of the most intelligent people alive today? Thomas Sowell. Two part interview.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lO5K1-X6w9E

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5daNMXer2UQ&t=36s

    In fact, Thomas Sowell has covered this topic a LOT. Larry Elder also. He asked David Rubin for an example of systemic racism. Here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phPXTWJhnYM

    (Full interview here: http://bit.ly/204K79F )

    He knows his stuff. David Rubin was a gay liberal in California until this interview. He still is gay, but this turned around his worldview completely.

    That you call me a WHITE Moderate says a lot though. My race shouldn't matter. The report didn't call out race for the moderates, and found, interestingly, that race and age didn't actually affect to much of a radical change or difference in the results. Consistantly about 80% of people hate PC culture.

    Yet you revolve around race, it is your pinion.

    How can you not see that your insistence of still sticking people in a racial box IS the problem? Measuring people by race is so.....stupid. It is so highly stupid. MLK also was clear that he wanted his kids to be in a colorblind society. How can they be when race is supposed to be who you are in identity politics the Left is spouting off? How can we NOT be racist if your victim hood is not based on your experience, where you grew up, your opportunities, your character, but still, fucking STILL, about your race and sex and maybe sexual orientation? Come fucking on man! If you start calling people out by race, saying they should think a certain way, act a certain way, because of their race - YOU. ARE. THE. RACIST. Even if you are calling out white people. That is racist you dumb ass.

    But the funny part is that report says the most PC, extreme portion of the problem is.... well, left sided, white, successful WOKE white people. In fact, is it the most racial homogeneous group.

    Until you can see past race: You. Are. The. Problem. Stop putting people in racial boxes you racist.
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  7. #967
    self reporting your racist or non-racist state is not the discussion at hand. your continued posting on the topic is pointless, and continues to be so. it is a literal straw man with NO added value to the conversation. i, and this conversation does not care, if people call themselves racist or not. it literally doesn't matter.



    you have not shown how race is not the source of GOP fiscal policy. i have stated why its is obvious to the casual observer that GOP policies are based in racism. you have not shown any evidence to the contrary.


    the TSI has not gone up either. how many pages of your bullshit dodges did we have to go through with that one?

    stop trying to dodge.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  8. #968
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    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    i have stated why its is obvious to the casual observer that GOP policies are based in racism.
    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    i said all of GOP policies are based in racism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lurker27 View Post
    Tax policy, defense spending, dismantling environmental regulations. . . hard for these policies to be racist prima facie IMO
    It's been answered.

    You have no concept of the burden of proof, it seems. You made a preposterous claim with absolutely zero facts. That's not even a position, it's just a dogmatic opinion. It's not up to Josh or Ryan or anyone else to argue against you. It's your job to support your claim with facts, which you haven't done.

    As a side bar, do you think racism goes both ways? If you look at pg104 in the report that Josh posted, Blacks have a 23% delta in how they view other blacks vs whites, whereas whites have only a 2% variation between races. If you go to pg105 you see that there is a 13% variation between politcal affiliations perception of blacks, but an astounding 23% difference in how whites are viewed. I think you're creating a problem that isn't.

    Steve, the letter you referenced was written in 1963. You have to prove that the racial climate is unchanged in, what... 65 years? We had a black president and Josh suggested things are clearly different:


  9. #969
    self reporting racist or non racist attitudes literally has nothing to do with the subject at hand. you are fighting windmills.



    you are going to have to show why republicans who suddenly shit bricks about the deficit when we spend money on brown people, are literally ebullience that we give money to rich white dudes at record pace, expanding the deficit massively.

    your going to have to tell me another explanation for the blatantly hypocrisy. racism is a great reason. im open to hearing other reasons, you have to give one. continuing to post "OMG people self report less and less racism, therefore it can't be racism" isnt a counter point. no matter how many times you post it, its still not a counter point. if you post it again, ITS STILL NOT A COUNTER POINT.
    Last edited by cockerpunk; 10-24-2018 at 10:13 AM.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  10. #970
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    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    self reporting racist or non racist attitudes literally has nothing to do with the subject at hand. you are fighting windmills.



    you are going to have to show why republicans who suddenly shit bricks about the deficit when we spend money on brown people, are literally ebullience that we give money to rich white dudes at record pace, expanding the deficit massively.

    your going to have to tell me another explanation for the blatantly hypocrisy. racism is a great reason. im open to hearing other reasons, you have to give one. continuing to post "OMG people self report less and less racism, therefore it can't be racism" isnt a counter point. no matter how many times you post it, its still not a counter point. if you post it again, ITS STILL NOT A COUNTER POINT.
    No Gordon. You're the one taking this idiotic position. We don't have to prove anything to you, because you fabricated the entire argument. You have to prove the reason is about race, specifically. Nobody can use facts to disprove your abstraction of reality.

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