Page 8 of 228 FirstFirst ... 6789101858108 ... LastLast
Results 71 to 80 of 2276

Thread: OT: Politics

  1. #71
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    1,581
    Jack, I think the way this shooting ended plays to that point. A "good Samaritan" chased away the shooter... with a gun. The issue I have is the shooter should NOT have been allowed to purchase a gun. He should have had a felony which would prohibit legal purchase.

  2. #72
    arming to defend yourself is actually even dumber than that statistic.

    you are more than 10x more likely to be harmed by a firearm on accident, than one used against you. so, now your solution to someone wanting to hurt you with a gun, is arming everyone, meanwhile the rate of accidental injuries from guns goes up by a factor of 10 compared to EVEN IF YOU COULD stop all gun violence.

    so, even assuming you could stop all gun violence, by arming everyone, your society will still be killing itself at an EVEN HIGHER RATE THAN IT DOES RIGHT NOW, because arming every idiot will increase gun injuries from accidents by a factor of 10.

    the math that a more armed society is a safer one can never work because accidents are far more common than any other gun injury. it can never work, even assuming that arming everyone could stop shootings (which it wont), the math STILL doesn't work. its like arguing that you solve deaths by car by everyone driving more.
    Last edited by cockerpunk; 11-06-2017 at 11:16 AM.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  3. #73
    Adobe Evangelist emisnug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Birmingham, UK (originally a Seattle native)
    Posts
    197
    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    I stated I would prefer to protect myself. But I am high on individual responsibility, and I grew up in a safe gun culture where a firearm wasn't there to protect you from another person, but from the wildlife, so I can understand where, as an unknown, it is something to fear. My experience in unique.
    This. This is everything - everyone's experiences with guns are unique.

    However, that doesn't mean that having a gun in one's possession is the correct thing. I am a very strong believer that the best form of personal protection is to run away and call someone who knows what they're doing. Arming yourself isn't the answer to a potentially lethal situation, and there is no shame whatsoever in running away.

    (My experience of guns is somewhat strange - I was taught how to use them responsibly a few years after being ill in February of 1996. We were in Moses Lake at the time - moved back to Seattle after that)
    No trees were harmed in the creation of this message, but several thousand electrons were mildly inconvenienced.

  4. #74
    Insider
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    174
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Wood View Post
    The US has higher per capita gun ownership than pretty much anywhere else in the world. But still has a higher death-by-gun rate of homocides than any other country by some margin.

    Am I right in that?

    So surely you have to concede that either arming to defend yourself isn't working, or there is more evil in America.

    *Edited to add that clearly I have no horse in this race and am being purely antagonistic for no real reason :-) However I do find it hard to understand the stance of more guns makes things better.
    But it was only the 377th mass shooting this year. How can you say more guns wouldn't make it better?

  5. #75
    Insider
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Manchester, England
    Posts
    704
    I actually think the whole debate is pretty irrelevant at this point. I do believe the US "system" is broken. But as you said in your edited post, Josh, the horse has already bolted. Too late to shut the stable door. There is absolutely no way that you will remove even a fraction of the guns in the US. Even if you managed to persuade everyone it was a good idea. You're stuck with the issue now. Unfortunately it just plays into the hands of the criminal and disaffected. They are just so prevalent, and so easy to get hold of, regardless of where you live and what local laws are, that they are too easy for anyone to get hold of.

    And come on, Josh. Australia already has one of the lowest homicide rates in the world. Their reduction in gun related deaths is quite impressive over the last 30 years. Possibly linked to reduction in number of guns? Or to economic growth?

    http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/co..._of_gun_deaths
    Last edited by Jack Wood; 11-06-2017 at 12:17 PM.
    Dear boy, I work at Planet Eclipse, don't you know..

  6. #76
    Insider
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Knoxville, TN
    Posts
    2,303
    The US has higher per capita gun ownership than pretty much anywhere else in the world. But still has a higher death-by-gun rate of homocides than any other country by some margin.

    Am I right in that?
    Close, and in some ways you are correct. Switzerland would have a higher gun ownership per capita. You kinda have to own a gun.

    But you have to look at most gun owners have several guns - the population at large who own a gun is far smaller.

    The US averages 101 guns for every 100 people. There is the wikipedia link for it:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estima...ita_by_country

    Where as there are caveats like Venezuela, which most likely is just as high, but illegal, so only counted as 10% of that.

    And:

    The United States has the highest rate of gun ownership of any country of the world, with an estimated 88.8 guns per 100 people as of 2007, according to the Small Arms Survey.[2] However, 50% of those guns are owned by 3% of the population.
    A 2002 survey estimated that 32% of all U.S. households own at least one gun. The gun ownership rate was highest in Wyoming, at 62.8%.[5] More recently, a 2015 study found that about one-third of Americans owned a gun, and that this figure was highest in Alaska (61.7%) and lowest in Delaware (5.2%).[6]
    So, 1/3rd hold a gun, but often this is a rifle or handgun, and stored, not carried.

    Here is an excellent chart of guns, homicides, gun ownership rates and related for most nations:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...nership/table/

    The US is at 3.2 per 100,000 for homicides by guns, and Mexico is 9.97, Brazil is 18.1, Guatemala is at 34.8, Honduras is at 68.43.

    Note, if you removed gang violence, the US would be at about .6 homicides per capita, and if you removed those 5% of counties where most murders occur it would drop even lower. Those are 'Blue States' for the most part (somebody here will find an exception.) That puts it down there with Ireland, at .48, Luxembourg at .62, or Canada at .51. Most of the US is just as low as anywhere, and those areas normally have the highest level of gun ownership.

    Since murder isn't legal, do guns increase that?

    Well, in the US our per capita is at 4.88 per 100,000. Canada is .168, but Greenland is 12.46, Russia is 11.31, Lithuania is 5.98, Iceland is .91, Australia is .98 - So there is no clear ratio between guns and homicides, there is one between ownership and homicide type.

    The real answer, as I mentioned above, is Culture. Northern European culture is consistently low in murder rates. Not just in Europe, but also in the US, where they also have low unemployment rates. Because they bring that culture over here. Same with lots of Asian immigrants.

    The Urban Gang culture, that is the real problem here in the US. If we could remove that culture we would remove 80% of our crime, and reduce the amount of deaths to a point where we would match Europe.

    So the problem is not the tool - but a culture that doesn't value human life.
    Last edited by pbjosh; 11-06-2017 at 12:17 PM.
    Josh Coray
    J4 Paintball
    Lead Design
    www.j4paintball.com

  7. #77
    Insider
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Knoxville, TN
    Posts
    2,303
    And come on, Josh. Australia already has one of the lowest homicide rates in the world. Their reduction in gun related deaths is quite impressive over the last 30 years. Possibly linked to reduction in number of guns? Or to economic growth?
    Oh, I stated the exact same thing. I even linked to it, a 20% reduction, and said it could be related to guns. In my second reply, I showed that Australia has a historic low rate also though. It is a different culture.

    I just showed that the US also showed a 50% reduction during that same time. And it wasn't related to guns, but to the change in drug of choice.

    So while there is a correlation with one, that correlation doesn't work with the other. It doesn't mean it was the cause - but I think it might have helped, and stated that, and that it was good. Economics play a large part there, but then again, the US homicide rate and gun death rate is 80% driven by gangs and related drug warfare. That is a somewhat unique situation, and wouldn't translate to other nations, those in Mexico, where there are high rates of homicides, they also have stricter gun laws and low firearm ownership.

    Gun politics and laws in Mexico covers the role firearms play as part of society within the limits of the United Mexican States.[1] Current legislation sets the legality by which members of the armed forces, law enforcement and private citizens may acquire, own, possess and carry firearms; covering rights and limitations to individuals—including hunting and shooting sport participants, property and personal protection personnel such as bodyguards, security officers, private security, and extending to VIPs (diplomats, public officials, celebrities).[2]
    A common misconception is that firearms are illegal in Mexico and that no person may possess them.[3] This belief originates due the general perception that only members of law enforcement, the armed forces, or those in armed security protection are authorized to have them. While it is true that Mexico possesses strict gun laws,[4] where most types and calibers are reserved to military and law enforcement, the acquisition and ownership of certain firearms and ammunition remains a constitutional right to all Mexican citizens and foreign legal residents;[5] given the requirements and conditions to exercise such right are fulfilled in accordance to the law.[6]
    There is historically low gun ownership, and due to that, a large number of murders by drug cartels.

    In defiance of the law to some extent, some towns have taken to arming themselves for protection.

    http://www.npr.org/2012/01/28/145996...stance-on-guns

    Addition edit:

    Though the Mexican Constitution permits gun ownership, the government strictly limits that privilege as a response to the violence of the Mexican revolution and to uprisings in the 1960s when students looted gun stores in Mexico City.

    "In the black market, it's very easy to acquire mostly American-made weapons here in our country, but through the legal process it's ... very complex and expensive," Alex LeBaron says.

    A citizen who wants a permit for a weapon must apply to the Mexican military — a process that can cost upward of $10,000. Then they pay to have the permit renewed annually. The military further regulates the caliber of weapon, how many guns a person can own, how much ammunition they can buy each month, and where in the country they can take the weapon.

    The government abolished the last private gun store in 1995. Today, the only legal gun store in the country is in Mexico City, guarded and operated by the armed forces
    Last edited by pbjosh; 11-06-2017 at 12:15 PM.
    Josh Coray
    J4 Paintball
    Lead Design
    www.j4paintball.com

  8. #78
    Insider
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Knoxville, TN
    Posts
    2,303
    And another take on it:

    http://www.mintpressnews.com/the-fac...ontrol/207152/

    The National Rifle Association (NRA) would have you believe that guns stop murders. The gun control lobby would have you believe that gun control reduces murders. They are both wrong. Gun bans have always had the same effect once implemented: none. They do not create a (sustained) period of increased murders, nor do they reduce the rate of homicides. The gun control crowd is currently stomping their feet and screaming “No, it reduces violence! I’ve seen the statistics.” What you probably saw were studies that point to reduced instances of “gun murders,” not murder. The pro-gun crowd is screaming that gun bans cause crime. At least this is grounded in reality. Typically, there is a spike in murders immediately after a ban, but it is short lived.

    United Kingdom: The UK enacted its handgun ban in 1996. From 1990 until the ban was enacted, the homicide rate fluctuated between 10.9 and 13 homicides per million. After the ban was enacted, homicides trended up until they reached a peak of 18.0 in 2003. Since 2003, which incidentally was about the time the British government flooded the country with 20,000 more cops, the homicide rate has fallen to 11.1 in 2010. In other words, the 15-year experiment in a handgun ban has achieved absolutely nothing.

    Ireland: Ireland banned firearms in 1972. Ireland’s homicide rate was fairly static going all the way back to 1945. In that period, it fluctuated between 0.1 and 0.6 per 100,000 people. Immediately after the ban, the murder rate shot up to 1.6 per 100,000 people in 1975. It then dropped back down to 0.4. It has trended up, reaching 1.4 in 2007.

    Australia: Australia enacted its gun ban in 1996. Murders have basically run flat, seeing only a small spike after the ban and then returning almost immediately to preban numbers. It is currently trending down, but is within the fluctuations exhibited in other nations.
    Now, I would like to see some counter argument on this (links please guys) but the no real affect is pretty much what I have seen.
    Josh Coray
    J4 Paintball
    Lead Design
    www.j4paintball.com

  9. #79
    Insider
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Manchester, England
    Posts
    704
    http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/co..._gun_homicides

    Same graph from the same website. There isn't a 50% reduction in gun related homicides in this chart.

    I see closer to 60% reduction over the same period (same website, same time period) in Australia http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/co..._of_gun_deaths

    The Wiki you quoted shows only 24% ownership in Switzerland. Not 100+%
    Dear boy, I work at Planet Eclipse, don't you know..

  10. #80
    i love when gun folks talk about switzerland, which has possibly the strictest gun control of any country on earth, as an example to disprove the effectiveness of gun control.

    im a dirty liberal, and even i find switzerlands gun control laws are draconian.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •