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Thread: OT: Politics

  1. #991
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBSteve View Post
    That is far too flippant a statement.
    You called specific instances proof of systemic racism. I said prove intent and you can't, so you play the semantics card because I suspect you know you can't. So, we can debate the merits of the law at face value without hidden agendas. Does having a strict policy on voter documentation help ensure voter eligibility? Yes. Not racist. Is having people who don't respect the law (convicted felons) lose their ability to participate in the governmental process a fair sentiment? I'd say "yes." No racism. So no, your accusations are, of now, completely unsubstantiated.

  2. #992
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironyusa View Post
    I said prove intent and you can't
    I'm not saying you're a white supremacist in the gross sense, but this is verbatim the defense playbook used by the Klan after the Colfax Massacre post United States v. Cruikshank.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Atlantic
    This decision, in United States v. Cruikshank, the legal historian Lawrence Goldstone argues, provided a guide for the campaign of racist terrorism that would suppress the black vote and enshrine a white man's government for generations. "The Colfax defendants would have had to announce their plan to violate their victims' rights on account of the color of their skin in order to be culpable," Goldstone wrote. "Justice Bradley had thus communicated to any Redeemer with violent intent that to avoid federal prosecution one need simply to keep one's mouth shut before committing murder."
    And btw, here's North Carolina's justification for changing early voting:

    Quote Originally Posted by State of North Carolina
    As "evidence of justifications" for the changes to early voting, the State offered purported inconsistencies in voting hours across counties, including the fact that only some counties had decided to offer Sunday voting. The State then elaborated on its justification, explaining that "counties with Sunday voting in 2014 were disproportionately black" and "disproportionately Democratic."
    Last edited by PBSteve; 10-24-2018 at 12:31 PM.
    Ever so many citizens of this republic think they ought to believe that the Universe is a monarchy, and therefore they are always at odds with the republic. -Alan Watts

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  3. #993
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    None of that has to do with what happened in Georgia or Florida. When confronted on your lack of facts, like a typical liberal, you draw comparisons to the klan for an emotional response. Neither one of the 2 cases you tossed out seem even a little bit racist to me from a policy standpoint.

  4. #994
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    For Gordon:

    You made the claim. It is a "The Moon is made of Cheese" claim. Until you prove it, it isn't on me or anyone to prove otherwise. You made the claim, back it up buttercup.

    Or, I can just go "Gordon F's [inserts animal of choice.]"

    Come on. Prove otherwise. Prove what I said isn't real. You can't, can you? You might not openly self report. You might not be hiding the truth.

    See how weak that position is? Oh, it can egg on a 'woke' crowd. But as an argument, it is weak, fake, tea. And that is all you did. You made a slur. Welcome to 5th grade.


    Outcome doesn't prove intent,

    That is far too flippant a statement.
    No Steve - it is basically correlation doesn't equal causation. It is valid. Unless you are trying to sell us astrology outcome doesn't prove intent.

    Or we could talk about Florida's felon disenfranchisement laws if you'd like. Or any number of other laws instituted by the GoP at the state level whose effect is to reduce the minority vote.
    These laws 'could' stop minority votes. But Felons are not allowed to vote, and there is potential for voter fraud. Almost every other country has voter ID laws, even developing countries, even Iraq did after the toppling of Saddam. If they can do it, why not the US?

    That is just sound fucking policy, and everybody else does it. Here is a wiki of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_Identification_laws

    So we are told Vote ID is racist. The funny part is that white people on the left think it is hard for that black people can't get ID, and black people in Harlem think they are stupid for saying that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrBxZGWCdgs

    I could go on and on and on. This is NOT proof of racism. This is, again, proof that everything is considered racist by the current Left side of the argument. It isn't proof though. It is assumption.

    As I have said before, and Larry Elder also did, the biggest factor, even among the left, is the large number of males raised with out a father in various parts of society. This is a factor that is 10:1 a bigger affect on holding the average black population back from the white vs racism.

    Again, watch Larry Elder. Here is another link you won't watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piwaBO6U43U


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  5. #995
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironyusa View Post
    None of that has to do with what happened in Georgia or Florida. When confronted on your lack of facts, like a typical liberal, you draw comparisons to the klan for an emotional response.
    I'm not intentionally pulling for an emotional response, just referencing historical context of race relations in the US. Its impossible to avoid the klan, they we're enormous. Indicating that intent must be made plain in order to make a judgement is exactly what you're advocating, and exactly what happened post Colfax.

    Neither one of the 2 cases you tossed out seem even a little bit racist to me from a policy standpoint.
    Knowing how the case law would be used to protect thousands of race based murderers, would you agree that implementing said law today would be racist?
    Ever so many citizens of this republic think they ought to believe that the Universe is a monarchy, and therefore they are always at odds with the republic. -Alan Watts

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  6. #996
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBSteve View Post
    I'm not intentionally pulling for an emotional response, just referencing historical context of race relations in the US. Its impossible to avoid the klan, they we're enormous. Indicating that intent must be made plain in order to make a judgement is exactly what you're advocating, and exactly what happened post Colfax.



    Knowing how the case law would be used to protect thousands of race based murderers, would you agree that implementing said law today would be racist?
    No, in fact, I provided an alternative theory that more closely corresponds with current race relations and tribal identities. Go back to the Alexander Fraser Tytler quote (which may be misappropriated, but Reagan referenced it) and then look at the self-identification data Josh posted. If policy narrative is manipulated in such a way (MAGA) that it fits correlates strongly with a tribal identity, then I believe the motivation by voters is likely based on 'Murica mentality and not indicative of the state of race relations. Those at the top know this to be true and won a presidential election with the tactic and not with policy. They also win the deficit debate with the same tactic. It never was about the deficit. The fallout is the lower socio-economic classes, which is currently dominated by minority races. The underlying driver is more than likely corporate cronyism and nothing more. Calling it racism just polarizes the moderates and leads them further to the MAGA mentality; you have people like yourself and Gordon to thank for polarizing the issues and driving the moderates to the right.

    Social security and welfare have been mis-categorized as racial issues and poorly debated by hotheads such as you and Gordon. FFS, even slavery in the US wasn't about racism. It was about financial gain just like it was all the way back to the Egyptians and Jews. The social stratification creates a god complex, which is evident intra-racially as well as evident in caste systems. Look at prohibition of cannabis. The overwhelming majority of voters, including republicans, want to reverse the prohibition. Why isn't it done? Drawing it out gives a competitive edge to those building a corporate structure instead of individual suppliers. Net neutrality... clearly not popular by voters on either side of the isle. Same story. Back to social security and welfare, the strong opposition by moderates to most democrat policies seems to be due to the republican framing of the issue as "dems are trying to make us a socialist country." Think about it, you're appealing to a group whose strongest tribal identity is based on their "American pride" and Democrats have fabricated this irrelevant race debate that completely occupies their resources, when the voting population isn't listening. It's not about race, it about the rich getting richer... and they are.

  7. #997
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    The Klan WAS enormous.

    Rallies of 200,000 people were not uncommon in the 1920s. Now? 300 to 400. Because there are 3000 klan memebers, and maybe 1600 alt right.

    Nationwide, there are still an estimated 3,000 Klan members and unaffiliated people who "identify with Klan ideology," according to the ADL. Membership, though, remains spread across dozens of groups. The largest Klans reportedly don't have more than 50 to 100 active members, and most have fewer than 25.
    https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...the-us-in-2017


    3000 people in 330,000,000

    1 in 110,000

    .000909%
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  8. #998
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    The fallout is the lower socio-economic classes, which is currently dominated by minority races. The underlying driver is more than likely corporate cronyism and nothing more. Calling it racism just polarizes the moderates and leads them further to the MAGA mentality; you have people like yourself and Gordon to thank for polarizing the issues and driving the moderates to the right.
    No. Obama himself even said it. The highest driver is fatherless households:

    Of all the rocks upon which we build our lives, we are reminded today that family is the most important. And we are called to recognize and honor how critical every father is to that foundation. They are teachers and coaches. They are mentors and role models. They are examples of success and the men who constantly push us toward it.

    But if we are honest with ourselves, we*ll admit that what too many fathers also are is missing * missing from too many lives and too many homes. They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.

    You and I know how true this is in the African-American community. We know that more than half of all black children live in single-parent households, a number that has doubled * doubled * since we were children. We know the statistics * that children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and 20 times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioral problems, or run away from home or become teenage parents themselves. And the foundations of our community are weaker because of it.
    Always liked this speech. One of my favorites from him.

    Many experts agree on this. If you are raised with a 2 parent home your chances for success are very high. Due to the high number of single mothers in the black community there are far more people being held back. It is cultural, internal, and not because of outside racism nor corporate influence. Not saying there isn't racism. Nor Corporatism.

    But the obvious overlying cause is single parent homes:

    Nonetheless it is an uncomfortable truth that children of divorce and children with unmarried parents tend to do much worse in life than children of two-parent families. (I*ll leave aside the sensitive issue of children of same-sex marriages, since these haven*t existed in a non-stigmatized atmosphere long enough to produce measurable results.)

    As Schulz points out, that uncomfortable truth is not controversial among social scientists. It is affirmed by undoubted liberals like Harvard*s David Ellwood and Christopher Jencks.

    Growing up outside a two-parent family means not just lower incomes and less social mobility, Schulz argues. It also reduces human capital * *the knowledge, education, habits, willpower * all the internal stuff that is largely intangible a person has that helps produce an income.*

    While children are born with certain innate capacities, those capacities can be broadened or narrowed by their upbringing. The numbers indicate that single or divorced parents * however caring and dedicated * are unable, on average, to broaden those capacities as much as married parents can.

    These differences have sharp implications for upward mobility. Schulz points to an Economic Mobility Project analysis that shows that among children who start off in the bottom third of the income distribution, only 26 percent with divorced parents move up, compared to 42 percent born to unmarried mothers (who may marry later, of course) and 50 percent who grow up with two married parents.
    http://www.aei.org/publication/child...etter-in-life/
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  9. #999
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    I fail to see how a 2 parent home has anything to do with the motive of political policies.

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    I fail to see how a 2 parent home has anything to do with the motive of political policies.
    Ah, my mistake. Well, my taking a bit out of context.
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