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Thread: OT: Politics

  1. #1111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurker27 View Post
    I still think that explicit racism is not the predominant factor in a multivariate analysis of conservative policy.
    That's the whole point! Is it a factor? Sure. Is it the biggest factor? I haven't seen anything to suggest so. What I have seen and posted about MANY times by now is that elites are CLEARLY using the GoP to push policies that benefit the wealthy. This is evident explicitly in the language of many policies. So, with that type of explicit socio-economic policy bias it falls to logic that the corresponding demographics would be benefited IF there is a racial stratification to income... and there is. So, any argument for EXPLICIT RACISM in policy is dead.

    The bookings institution says stay in school, work hard, wait to have kids, and you*ll avoid poverty. https://www.brookings.edu/book/creat...unity-society/

    Whites graduate at 88% and blacks at 76%. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_coi.asp
    Whites work at 96.2% rate vs blacks at 93.5%. https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpsee_e16.htm
    Blacks have more kids out of wedlock: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_01.pdf

    I don't know, but socio-cultural issues outside of race seem more relvant than race relations even as a secondary data-point.

  2. #1112
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    Genuine curiosity: who are these "elites"? Are we going full Soros?
    Ever so many citizens of this republic think they ought to believe that the Universe is a monarchy, and therefore they are always at odds with the republic. -Alan Watts

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  3. #1113
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    What I have seen and posted about MANY times by now is that elites are CLEARLY using the GoP to push policies that benefit the wealthy.
    Interesting note, just listened to the Tucker Carlson interview with David Rubin. I forwarded it to the point where they talk about the problems with the Republican party. I think it might be an interesting place to start from.

    https://youtu.be/a0UMMUP7K48?t=624

    After about minute 15 it gets on trump and related, and you might find Tucker's position interesting, but there is no need to hash that out here. Tucker is no huge fan of the GOP, and calls them out for trying to be the Fat Cat party.

    Small edit: What might be better said is the GoP is trying to suck up to the Elites, and they didn't realize they lost that position a while ago to the DNC.
    Last edited by pbjosh; 10-29-2018 at 08:35 PM.
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  4. #1114
    Quote Originally Posted by ironyusa View Post
    Why not just say you agree with Gordon?

    Going back to the cases you provided...

    Florida felon disenfranchisement - I don't think is a good example.

    Georgia's voter purge - I think there is a better case to be made on this with the caveat that if sufficient evidence can be presented that there is, in fact, a fraud issue revolving around falsified IDs then I'd separate issues. Policy to solve the fraud is warranted. Closing polling stations on Sundays - seems like there was pretty clear intent there to explicitly exclude voters.

    Border camps - Trump is enforcing existing policy. I see both sides... it sucks that families are being torn apart, but who is really to blame? Nobody made someone come to the US illegally. I don't know the solution, but I agree that there is a problem with the outcome of the policy when enforced. The solution is not do not enforce. It's find a better policy. Of course there is a racially-biased outcome of enforcing policies - it's immigration not necessarily racism.

    Again, I believe implicit biases can be educated away. Racism cannot (in most cases). So, in order for your extremist litmus test to work the policy needs to contain explicitly racially-biased language. If the policy is pandering to a sun-conscience bias, then again, lets see the % breakdown. Do it on a single policy. I suggest that preservation & advancement of a socio-economic status is far more prevalent in the language of policy than is race. Race is stratified heavily by economics, so of course an outcome is going to correlate as a result. It's a multivariate context. Why you keep cleaving to this extremist position is only so you can claim a moral high-ground to try and take the implied authority that comes with it.

    Simplified for you:

    FACT: GoP policies favor the rich: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgo...vors-the-rich/
    FACT: Blacks tend to have lower income: https://www.bls.gov/spotlight/2018/r...ial-status.pdf

    The obvious implication... republicans must be RACISTS! Nope.



    Huh? I said the opinion of 1 guy = the opinion of one guy. Not "people" at all, rather a person. You invented the straw man.
    I'll bite. The policies themselves are not racist. It's how they are presented by the administration and conservative media. For example, there is nothing racist about securing the border and ensuring those who come in come in legally. You can fairly argue it's good policy. It's a different issue when you state you must stop the caravan because the people bring in unknown diseases, are all criminals, and there are "middle easterners" present. I think that's where the disconnect may be here.

  5. #1115
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    It's a different issue when you state you must stop the caravan because the people bring in unknown diseases, are all criminals, and there are "middle easterners" present. I think that's where the disconnect may be here.
    I think that is rhetoric building and inaccurate. What does it help? I basically lays out what people are afraid of, the fear being real or imagined. Which would mostly be moot about 10 minutes after they hit the border and get pushed on a bus. It isn't like they are just going to get to wander in. If you want in, you really need to not be in a big group that is getting lots of media attention. Not very sneaky at all. As if there was some other agenda...

    That being said, Honduras is becoming a shite ole, and I can't really blame them. Honduras has a population of 9.3 million. It has a per capita income of $2830 and 65% poverty rate. The interesting bit? I seems Zelaya has been blamed for organizing the caravan with Venezuelan funding.

    So, political maneuvering on both sides, and some few thousand people stuck in the middle knowing they need out, and being sold a lie.
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  6. #1116
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    Quote Originally Posted by d0cwho View Post
    I'll bite. The policies themselves are not racist. It's how they are presented by the administration and conservative media. For example, there is nothing racist about securing the border and ensuring those who come in come in legally. You can fairly argue it's good policy. It's a different issue when you state you must stop the caravan because the people bring in unknown diseases, are all criminals, and there are "middle easterners" present. I think that's where the disconnect may be here.
    I don't object to that. The policy and the narrative are 2 seperate conversations. The policy itself would be the source of systemic racism, which you agreed is not racist. The narrative, in many cases, plays to some implicit biases but like I said... this can be educated away. This shifts the conversation away from a strictly policy issue (with the GoP) to something more of a mainstream media issue. If you can point out specific cases, I think you'd be suprised how fast we can find common ground.

    In general, calling everything "racist" creates a "boy who cried wolf" dilemma. It dilutes the attention of the cases of actual racism and I find it horribly disrespectful to the victims. Racism should be objectionable by both sides, but I believe extremism has desensitized the moderates. I agree with the premise that the GoP is more "tolerant" of racism and that sucks. I do, however, reject the notion that it is the primary driver... it simply cannot be. There are too many people who are apathetic to race relations to be a conversation that moves the needle.

    So, what I've been say all along is that Gordon, Steve and most liberals have fixated on race, because it's good for hysteria. It's a smoke-in-mirrors issue disgusing the root cause of policy disparity. Republican's should be ok with this because if you can't prove racism (and you can't) they keep winning elections. If policy favors the rich, it favors whites and Asians due to the socio-economic spread. To fix the race issue, we don't run around calling everyone a racist, rather we focus on the common enemy of policies that favor the elite and the socio-cultural issues that incubate the income disparity. I don't want to put words in Ryan's mouth, but republicans have created and allowed the liberals to keep fighting a war on a topic that simply doesn't move the needle. Until the left refocuses with a less idiotic position, they'll never draw back moderates.
    Last edited by ironyusa; 10-30-2018 at 08:35 AM.

  7. #1117
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    Race for the Left = "caravan.... unknown diseases, are all criminals, and there are "middle easterners" on the right.

    These are the motivating item on each side, and has about as much 'existence' as I see it.
    Last edited by pbjosh; 10-30-2018 at 11:38 AM.
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  8. #1118
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    How to shore up support among republicans before an election:

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1N41MD
    Ever so many citizens of this republic think they ought to believe that the Universe is a monarchy, and therefore they are always at odds with the republic. -Alan Watts

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  9. #1119
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    How to shore up support among republicans before an election:
    I have to agree. Not a move I like really, but I can see why.

    Small edit: Per the link - http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...ants-declines/

    About 295,000 babies were born to unauthorized-immigrant parents in 2013, making up 8% of the 3.9 million U.S. births that year, according to a new, preliminary Pew Research Center estimate based on the latest available federal government data. This was a decline from a peak of 370,000 in 2007.
    8% is a lot more than I realized. I had no clue it was that high. I was thinking less than a percent.
    Last edited by pbjosh; 10-30-2018 at 12:16 PM.
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  10. #1120
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    Naturally executive action in direct conflict with the US Constitution is the correct move for an authoritarian.
    Ever so many citizens of this republic think they ought to believe that the Universe is a monarchy, and therefore they are always at odds with the republic. -Alan Watts

    I work for the company building the Paragon

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