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Thread: OT: Politics

  1. #1251
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    And maybe a bit less racist, per some people's definition on here...

  2. #1252
    Insider PBSteve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    Maybe a bit more simple:

    There is actually less evil in the trump administration than Obama on this situation.
    You can't really say that until the FOIA requests go through since Trump has taken office. At a minimum, many of the children separated under the new enforcement policies have yet to be reunited with their parents (by court order) because the documentation was destroyed.
    Last edited by PBSteve; 11-03-2018 at 12:32 PM.
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  3. #1253
    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    Maybe a bit more simple:

    There is actually less evil in the trump administration than Obama on this situation.
    Yes, Obama attempted to deter asylum seekers with children from entering the country by detaining them in family facilities. This was challenged in Court and the 9th Circuit said you can't detain accompanied minors for more than 20 days for purposes of deterrence. They were silent on whether you could detain parents. The Obama administration then made it their practice to release the whole family after 20 days rather than just the children. VOX The trump administration policy is different by splitting the families up and continuing to detain the parents. It's a different policy that I find to be unnecessarily cruel to families who are attempting to come here to escape poverty, and in some cases violence, to live a better life. Especially given the fact, crossing the border illegally the first time is a misdemeanor crime.
    Last edited by d0cwho; 11-03-2018 at 12:57 PM.

  4. #1254
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    I disagree. It is the same policy. Except Obama tried to hold them longer than 20 days. Obama did detain parents also. He followed the same laws, and made the same choices. But after 20 days he had to let them slip through if they were not processed, that is why the courts were involved, and hence, as I linked to before, their ruling was that ALL children were covered by the law, not just some. That was the verdict in 2016, before trump was president. And hence, they all were subject to 20 day limits

    The separation of children happened with both administrations, as shown with the 2014 pictures that were later attributed to Trump. It happened at the same rate, the only difference is trump improved the number of judges so they could process every family, instead of those that slipped through.

    That is it.
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  5. #1255
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    At a minimum, many of the children separated under the new enforcement policies have yet to be reunited with their parents (by court order) because the documentation was destroyed.
    There is not 'new' enforcement policies, except in that they have more judges and they have better facilities to board people.

    That is all that was new. The rest was exactly the same as Obama. This is no different than things that happened during Obama's administration. There is not a new take kids away from parent rule, there is not a new hold more parent rule, there is not a we detain more people rule.

    There was just a we well make sure nobody slips through adjustment to how the rules were carried out.

    That is it.

    You can't really say that until the FOIA requests go through since Trump has taken office.
    I can say whatever. If you and Gordon can call people racist before the FIOA has gone through, then I can sure as hell call them not racist.
    Last edited by pbjosh; 11-03-2018 at 01:17 PM.
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  6. #1256
    Detaining families together and detaining the parents and separating the child is a different policy. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on that. The separation of children from parents did happen, but definitely not under the same rate as Bush and Obama administrations attempted to detain families together. Fact Check

    And let me just clarify something, I don't think enforcing the immigration laws, detaining families, or separating families is necessarily racist. I think the manner in which that enforcement happens is heartless, but I'll admit all options are bad in this realm of policy. I also think detaining families is a waste of money compared to cheaper options such as ankle monitors. What I do find racist/xenophobic is the promotion of these policies by making the implicit suggestion that preventing people coming from latin america prevents rapists, criminals, diseases, etc. from coming into our country.
    Last edited by d0cwho; 11-03-2018 at 01:30 PM.

  7. #1257
    Insider PBSteve's Avatar
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    I also want to make clear that Obama's actions were far less than perfect on many issues, and his actions don't justify humanitarian violations.
    Ever so many citizens of this republic think they ought to believe that the Universe is a monarchy, and therefore they are always at odds with the republic. -Alan Watts

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  8. #1258
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    The separation of children from parents did happen, but definitely not under the same rate as Bush and Obama administrations attempted to detain families together.
    I will take that - Bush had almost no detention rate. There wasn't even the facilities to do that under Bush, as I pointed out in the 3600% increase in funding needed under Obama. And there was separation issues, or the Flores act and the California courts wouldn't have to be enacted.

    Specifying a larger, zero tolerance policy is the some total in change then, instead of a 'part or most' policy that nobody even kept track of before. [shakes head] Like, you know, Australia and other countries have. The reason we are arguing all of this bull is because Gordon said Trumps policies were racist and evil and he made new rules that separated kids from parents and made child concentration camps.

    These rules are not new. Nothing of that sort was new. Just more judges, more facilities, and more prosecution.
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  9. #1259
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    And to be clear - separating families is not preferred. That being said, it wouldn't be an issue if the people wanting to come to america came to an appropriate and legal port to come into the nation at. Had paperwork.

    There is a legal way to enter.

    EVERY ONE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IS NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW.

    Edit:

    The entirety of the subject involves those already breaking the law, who were caught, who brought their kids.

    If say, you were running drugs. Legal citizen here in the US. Had a kilo of blow in the back seat with the kid. Parents go to get arraigned, kids go into CPS.

    Same deal. In the end, same result.

    By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, including the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), 8 U.S.C. 1101 et seq., it is hereby ordered as follows:

    Section 1. Policy. It is the policy of this Administration to rigorously enforce our immigration laws. Under our laws, the only legal way for an alien to enter this country is at a designated port of entry at an appropriate time. When an alien enters or attempts to enter the country anywhere else, that alien has committed at least the crime of improper entry and is subject to a fine or imprisonment under section 1325(a) of title 8, United States Code. This Administration will initiate proceedings to enforce this and other criminal provisions of the INA until and unless Congress directs otherwise. It is also the policy of this Administration to maintain family unity, including by detaining alien families together where appropriate and consistent with law and available resources.
    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325

    (a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts
    Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

    (b) Improper time or place; civil penaltiesAny alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter) the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of*
    (1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or attempted entry); or
    (2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under this subsection.
    Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be imposed.
    (c) Marriage fraud
    Any individual who knowingly enters into a marriage for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or fined not more than $250,000, or both.

    (d) Immigration-related entrepreneurship fraud
    Any individual who knowingly establishes a commercial enterprise for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, fined in accordance with title 18, or both.

    (June 27, 1952, ch. 477, title II, ch. 8, §*275, 66 Stat. 229; Pub. L. 99*639, §*2(d), Nov. 10, 1986, 100 Stat. 3542; Pub. L. 101*649, title I, §*121(b)(3), title V, §*543(b)(2), Nov. 29, 1990, 104 Stat. 4994, 5059; Pub. L. 102*232, title III, §*306(c)(3), Dec. 12, 1991, 105 Stat. 1752; Pub. L. 104*208, div. C, title I, §*105(a), Sept. 30, 1996, 110 Stat. 3009*556.)
    Last edited by pbjosh; 11-03-2018 at 03:01 PM.
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  10. #1260
    I would say implementing a ?zero tolerance? policy is a new policy since the result will always be separation. That is new and was not previously done. Does the policy follow a natural progression? Yeah I would agree with that. Doesn?t mean taking that next step was a moral or good idea. People in administration knew this would happen on a large scale level.

    Also crossing the border illegal the first time is a misdemeanor so your example is not quite on point.

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