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Thread: OT: Politics

  1. #1451
    Insider PBSteve's Avatar
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    Irony wanted specific instances of racism in the GoP, so I continue. The primary purpose of the "race-agnostic" citizenship question on the census is an intimidation tactic against people of color, to restrict federal resources to those communities.

    I wish I could say that we*re building upon the last decade*s progress, but unfortunately, we will have to work much harder to make the same case. For the first time in 70 years, the Trump administration had added a citizenship question to the census, which is a surefire way of scaring immigrants away from participating.

    Immigrant communities of color, who historically have been reluctant to engage with government officials, are even more reluctant now - and for good reason. Whether it is the Muslim ban, the rescission of DACA for Dreamers, or proposing to end family-based immigration, the Trump administration has shown hostility to immigrant communities at every turn.

    By adding a citizenship question to the decennial census, the Trump administration is taking a campaign to intimidate and marginalize immigrants into the homes of every New Yorker. The citizenship question threatens to put all immigrant respondents, as well as their families, loved ones, and neighbors, in a bind: Identify your status to a hostile administration or risk the loss of critical federal resources and political power.
    https://www.aclu.org/blog/voting-rig...Lr-NMpMt0UjU3o
    Last edited by PBSteve; 11-25-2018 at 06:30 PM.
    Ever so many citizens of this republic think they ought to believe that the Universe is a monarchy, and therefore they are always at odds with the republic. -Alan Watts

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  2. #1452
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    In the memo, dated January 19, 2018, Chief Scientist John Abowd warned that adding a citizenship question ?harms the quality of the census count.? ?Three distinct analyses support the conclusion of an adverse impact on self-response and, as a result, on the accuracy and quality of the 2020 Census,? the memo adds. The question would also likely drive up follow-up costs by at least $27.5 million as the Bureau tried to make up for a falling response rate.

    The Administration says it?s adding the question to generate local counts of citizens, which it claims it needs to enforce voting rights laws. But, Abowd explains, officials could obtain this information from existing Social Security Administration data and other government records ? an alternative that would be more accurate, less costly to taxpayers, and less burdensome for the public than filling out another census question.
    https://www.cbpp.org/blog/census-chi...y-raises-costs

    "We're reducing the accuracy of the census, won't recieve quality data on the question being asked, and better quality data is already available. How dare you imply we're using it as an intimidation tactic to reduce federal resources, restrict polling places, and generally intimidate people of color, it's race agnostic policy! There's no mention of race anywhere."

  3. #1453
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    Well you guys had a lot of time this holiday vacation! I had Honey-do's and some kids to play with, so I don't think I will address the post vomit you guys did much. Just don't have the time. I will give you points for sheer volume without reply. Impressive.

    Irony wanted specific instances of racism in the GoP, so I continue.
    Well, while you were fiddling away, your audience left. Look up some time, don't away get so wrapped up in the music, eh?

    What's dishonest is not even attempting to understand the psychology that leads to seemingly morally disparate positions. It's so crazy to me how you can base your politics on empathy and yet not apply that to discourse.
    Curious - who was this directed toward? Lots of flack out there, curious about the actual target.

    Haidt addresses this very well though - he really has his finger on the pulse of the current political climate. Speaking of....experts:

    https://www.investors.com/politics/e...warming-blame/

    U.S. Geological Survey research scientist Jon Keeley has studied the origin of western fires since 1910. He says that 95% of all fires originate with humans. "This is a people problem," Keeley told The Mercury News. "What's changing is not the fires themselves but the fact that we have more and more people at risk.

    Keeley notes, for instance, that the number of homes threatened by wildfire in the Western U.S. surged from about 607,000 in 1940 to 6.7 million in 2010. That's a more than 1,000% rise. It's a basic matter of population impinging on wilderness areas.

    Moreover, a 2017 study found that, since 1970 the number of fires burning 300 acres or more has actually declined. How can that be? Fires once raged across pristine forests and grasslands. But they had far fewer people or small towns in the way, as Keeley notes.

    "The story can't be a simply that warming is increasing the numbers of wildfires in California because the number of fires is declining. And area burned has not been increasing either," University of Washington climatologist University of Washington Cliff Mass wrote last August, in response to that month's fires.

    So, if not climate, what is the cause? The mismanagement of both state and federal forest lands. It's the triumph of "green" ideology over common sense.

    Beginning in 1994, with the best of intentions, President Clinton put in place a plan to limit logging of old-growth trees to protect the endangered Spotted Owl in Western forests. Those moves pretty much ended what had been a policy of active management of fire threats in our national forests. Logging halted, the burnable fuel on the forest floor built up, and fires, while not more frequent, became more intense and threatening to nearby towns and homes.

    "(Before 1994) mostly fuels were removed through logging, active management ? which they stopped ? and grazing," Bob Zybach, a reforestation consultant who has a Ph.D. in environmental science told the Daily Caller Foundation in an interview. "You take away logging, grazing and maintenance, and you get firebombs."

    The Western Governors Association even warned about the mismanagement of our forest resources as far back as 2005 in a report:

    "Over time the fire-prone forests that were not thinned, burn in uncharacteristically destructive wildfires, and the resulting loss of forest carbon is much greater than would occur if the forest had been thinned before fire moved through," the report warned. "In the long term, leaving forests overgrown and prone to unnaturally destructive wildfires means there will be significantly less biomass on the ground, and more greenhouse gases in the atmosphere."
    Mismanagement is still, by far, the largest factor. This was known decades ago. And temperatures have been mostly stable for the last 20 years. Just sayin. Looks like they might be going down a bit, with Arctic and Antarctic ice increasing over the last 2 years. And a nice record cold Thanksgiving.

    Glad you guys had lots of free time this extended weekend, and put it to good use.

    Here on our little forum.
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  4. #1454
    now both domestic automakers are cutting 1X,XXX jobs, and closing plants in the USA.

    trump recession is right on schedule.



    the trumpers dont care though ... why? because it was never actually about economic fright either .... guess what it is about?
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  5. #1455
    this also may be the reason why josh's defense of trumps words never actually make sense:



    and why he is always having to change words and say "what he really means is this .." because josh believes trump's innuendo, and doesnt actually care about the words he uses. which are, as we have repeatedly gone over, most of the time 100% bullshit.

    we cannot have a policy discussion on innuendo. and we certainly cannot have an honest discussion on any topic when its based on josh's innuendo.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  6. #1456
    Insider PBSteve's Avatar
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    Josh, nobody has denied that fire management practices nationwide were poor for decades. Even schoolchildren know this. My point was that nothing could have addressed the fire near me, and that the state of California has little control over the majority of land within its borders, making Trump's attack on the state exactly as intelligent as you are. I can quote myself if you need.

    You literally just quoted a bit and bolded the portion about federal policy. Christ.

  7. #1457
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    now both domestic automakers are cutting 1X,XXX jobs, and closing plants in the USA.

    trump recession is right on schedule.
    Your a car guy. Come on. People want Cute Utility Vehicles because they are easier to get in and out of and they have better visibility. Ford just jumped to it first. Everything, even if it a change in customer choice, is Bad and Trump did it. You gonna force every one to drive Volts and Impalas there Comrade? They want the SUV. So Gm is following that, and a bit late to the game. I mean, stuck on stupid. People don't want sedans any more. They want to pay more for bigger vehicles with worse gas mileage because they can afford it, gas prices are down, the dollar is strong, and you are thinking this is a sign of a worsening economy?

    Dude. Nobody here should have to explain basic economics to ya. Especially car economics.

    Josh, nobody has denied that fire management practices nationwide were poor for decades.
    "We won*t stop California*s wildfires if we don*t talk about climate change" WaPo
    "Undeniable link to climate change' in California's fire season, expert says" ABC News
    "What is it about California that makes wildfires so catastrophic? There are four key ingredients. The (changing) climate
    The first is California*s climate." NYT.

    Your Governor said it himself. Experts said it also. See, 'nobody' is an absolute. I just need one person to disagree with you. If I can show that somebody who is in charge of budgeting the fire service budget for the entire state said it and acted upon it, like Gov. Brown, and show that other people like President Clinton put environmental movements above good forest management, then yeah, I think I can make my point in counter to your 'nobody' claim.

    And in that, when Trump said 'that fire management practices *in California* were poor for decades' many people like yourself and Gordon threw up your arms and got angry and mad at Trump. And they said he was wrong to say that.

    He stated the obvious. He stated something that right now you are saying Nobody Has Denied! There is a solid bit of irony in that.

    that the state of California has little control over the majority of land within its borders
    I have countered this a few times Steve, it is a repeated but false talking point. Other states work with the BLM to setup fire control practices on federal land, I cited Alaska as an example, who has more Federal Land than your entire state's size. I gave you links and copied the text in. California has taken a different course and done less than other states have. The State of California has a LOT of control here, and chose this path instead. I even cited the report from the State of California to the State of California about the problem and how they can work with the federal government to fix the problem. If you want I can go back to at least 3 places I sited it before. If you still believe it, that is your problem, but I don't think you are talking to anybody here but Gordon with this misdirection. Ryan at least seemed to have read it, and he isn't repeating your talking points.

    And you still were the one denouncing the President for not saying what you had wanted him to say, yet he had said it also on that day. Your purpose for the post, and all of these replies exist because you demanded commentary from the president that he has already said, and now, in the end, you are saying nobody denies what Trump said.

    You seem....confused?

    IF you want, how about now saying 'nobody denies that the Climate Models were all wrong'. That can save us a few dozen pages as you come around to it. Ha!
    Josh Coray
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  8. #1458
    Josh

    If you are referring to this report (https://lhc.ca.gov/report/fire-mount...-sierra-nevada) it does state that poor management practices have been an issue, but it also highlights the issues both Gordon and Steve have been talking about (see pages 21-23). According to the report, it wasn't until 2014 that states were allowed to work on forests in Federal land. The issue of poor management appears to be a bit more complex than everyone is making it seem.

    Also on Alaska, come on man, it's a different ecosystem that doesn't have the drought problems faced by California. It's not even a fair comparison, nor is it an honest argument.

  9. #1459
    no one should need to explain that factory capacity could be turned over to cross over production nearly instantly. cross over are just cars with longer springs.

    ergo, shutting these factories down and firing these people isn't because of a shift in demand to cross overs (because they could build cross overs there), its because of the slumping trump economy.

    ford already stated they are firing 10k+ workers and have lost over a billion dollars in profit due to trumps tariffs.


    these loses are just the start. as they trickle through the subcontractors on down .... certainly a bell-ringer for the economy. american agriculture is hurting badly too.
    Last edited by cockerpunk; 11-27-2018 at 10:41 AM.
    social conservatism: the mortal fear that someone, somewhere, might be having fun.

  10. #1460
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    It's both, you're just misattributing what the deeper position is.
    Sorry I missed this Ryan. I agree to your points across the board.

    I think that is my main problem. As I see it Gordon and Steve want to Smash, and they do not want to understand.

    It is Tribalism. Everybody not from our Tribe is motivated by a Evil, and every one who doesn't Virtue Signal in the proper way is against our sacred motives, and against our Tribe. This is what Haidt has been saying for over a decade now. And the reason the one report was labelled Hidden Tribes.

    I can explain ad nauseam, and I have to an extent said the same thing from the very beginning of the very long political run of comments.

    And really I should just walk away again. I know a few who have from here. That is why I feel this portion of the forum is shit. This this any different than why Gordon gets kicked off of every forum he is on for a while? (Then gets kicked off again later, and add to that an occasional sock puppet he puts up.) It isn't about actually trying to understand a different position, but smearing the other side. Like all of Steve's recent "here is what the Right is doing bad in my opinion, and all I see is racism" stuff.

    Ironically it basically is the same mindset that gives way to racism, or antisemitism, or any other ism that allows people to justify atrocities. There is no different. They label the other side evil, state they are bad, and justify controlling or hurting them. The twist in this case is they are calling the other side racists. That is one of the lefts sacred totems at the moment, a far swing from their previous position.

    That is what justified slavery for years. Justified the October Revolution. The successful people were oppressing the people, so we killed them. The jews were controlling us so we justified killing them. The bad white men are the patriarchy and we need to over throw them. The GOP are fascist and everything the do is racism. The Westboro church mindset is the same - the gays cause god to kill people with hurricanes. This mindset is not different in its underlying motivations from Hutu to Tutsi. It justifies being an ass. Gordon flat out said that is why he does it.

    None of it is true. But it is believed. Because these views are sacred.

    There is no mechanical, mental or chemical difference in these positions from the ones that produced the Gulag or Nazis or any other genocide. We have done this since we have had tribes. Call the other side Evil, accept killing them.

    Gordon and Steve justify their beliefs, see the world, through this mindset. Strongly.

    We all do to an extent. I have my biases. But I don't think the other side is Evil, and I don't bend my mindset to justify being an ass.

    That is why I posted the Good vs Good bit.

    I feel if they had an understanding of the other side, they could understand that the other side is, well, human. Just as human, complex, complicated, smart, dumb, amazing and flawed as they are.

    But - no. I think it is time to let this portion of the internet resort back to Gordon and Steve just bashing and shaming people so they can get in their daily virtue signalling so they can feel good about themselves. Even if they are wrong. To live in their myopic world were they insult, lie, and shame people who are not doing anything, do not have anything close to the motivation that Gordon or Steven believe they do.

    See ya around Ryan. Have a good one. Maybe somebody will moderate this forum, but instead of that authoritarian request, I will just embrace the free market. Lots of people out there to interact with. See ya around man. Simon had a nice forum, too bad this happened to it.
    Josh Coray
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