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Thread: OT: Politics

  1. #651
    Quote Originally Posted by PBSteve View Post
    Apparently Trump is moving on this now because of a special election in W. Pennsylvania that's neck and neck. Welcome to populism.

    Wonder if that election is worth the 200,000 jobs this same idea cost when Bush II tried it in 2002.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002...s_steel_tariff
    It will likely be worse if it happens. Bush exempted our main trade partners such as Canada and the tariff was lower than 25% and didn't even hit aluminum. Trump is committing economic suicide

  2. #652
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    However, he's talking to the larger, over-arching problem which the Republicans have acknowledged but have done nothing about and when they start cutting the availability, they are making the problem worse. They may not be trying to make the problem worse but, they are.
    I showed just a page or 4 back where the GOP brought up programs that would have improved on a reporting system that would have done a lot to curb the majority of these incidents. It also addressed mental health.

    It was filibustered by the DNC.

    See, there is a lot of people repeating the "GOP isn't doing anything" as rhetoric, in fact it has been a fairly constant comment - Ted Cruz went on CNN and did a 15 minute interview for them discussing what the GOP want to do. What happened? CNN didn't air it.

    The reason you are not seeing the GOP's plans, or the ways they want to proceed is not because of the GOP wanting to do nothing. It is entirely because the sources that the GOP uses to get it's message out. They suck at it, rather royally.

    Trump has definitely gone off the farm though, and is suggesting confiscation and a few other rather drastic measures. Even Feinstein is friggin giddy about the idea.

    Josh how do you explain why every other countries that regulate guns has lower homicide rates/less gun related crimes? How do you explain why gun-related deaths/shootings went down after more controls were placed on gun ownership - namely Switzerland and Australia? I'm honestly curious because what limited data points we have seem to suggest that reducing the number of guns and limiting ownership leads to a safer country.
    I have been over this in thorough depth, on this forum, before. Sorry you have missed it. The first part you have to realize, it that is NOT true.

    The second part you need to know is that, minus the gang on gang related crime, the US has a gun homicide rate lower than Britain. On that, for registered concealed carry gun owners in TX, the homicide rate is less than half that of Britain.

    The majority of high crime in the US, 90% of all high crime areas, are in areas with high levels of Gun Control already. The 'Blueist' areas of the nation also overlay with the highest levels of gun crime. They already have had historically high gun controls, even making ownership illegal. Like DC. That did not reduce crime, but allowed those areas to become the most dangerous sections of the US. In fact, 2% of the counties in the US cover 51% of the total homicides. If you notice, the high level of gun regluation in California does nothing to stop this, and they have the 'Redist' sections: https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/nu...s-69-1-murder/

    Again - that is due to gang on gang territory violence.

    Also, you need to look at total homicides vs gun homicides. In most cases, homicide rates went up, even gun deaths went up, directly following gun control.

    In addition, the gun homicide rate has been decreasing over decades, after the popularity of Crack decreased. Partially because overall homicide rates are going down. Same with rape. and several other metrics.

    If you want I can mine this, but the last time this came up I put up yards of supporting data, which seems to offend people on here for some reason. One small bit:

    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...n_2378073.html
    "Chicago?s McCarthy said the city?s high murder rate, up 18 percent over last year as of Dec. 16, was due to gang violence. Eighty percent of the homicides were gang-related and 80 percent of the victims were African-Americans, he said."
    https://www.statista.com/chart/3848/...her-countries/

    US Murder rate: 5.2
    Average Europe rate: 1

    80% of 5 is... 1

    We have a gang problem. And most of that is because of how we deal with drugs.

    Small additional edit. I believe we have moved to #11 currently - I will see if I can find the updated data.

    Last edited by pbjosh; 03-04-2018 at 11:48 PM.
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  3. #653
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    It will likely be worse if it happens. Bush exempted our main trade partners such as Canada and the tariff was lower than 25% and didn't even hit aluminum. Trump is committing economic suicide
    Bastiat's commentary on tariffs and other restrictions to a free market are lost on Trump. Curious but glad to see the left side of the argument in agreement with the stupidity of this.
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  4. #654
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    See, there is a lot of people repeating the "GOP isn't doing anything" as rhetoric, in fact it has been a fairly constant comment - Ted Cruz went on CNN and did a 15 minute interview for them discussing what the GOP want to do. What happened? CNN didn't air it.

    The reason you are not seeing the GOP's plans, or the ways they want to proceed is not because of the GOP wanting to do nothing. It is entirely because the sources that the GOP uses to get it's message out. They suck at it, rather royally.
    You know as well as I do any GoP politician can go on Fox news and say anything that follows party lines any time they want.
    Ever so many citizens of this republic think they ought to believe that the Universe is a monarchy, and therefore they are always at odds with the republic. -Alan Watts

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  5. #655
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    You know as well as I do any GoP politician can go on Fox news and say anything that follows party lines any time they want.
    That really is a low information comment. Do you or Doc watch fox news? I don't. (I don't breitbart either, before you go there.) On the flip, that means somebody spouting leftist views can go spew the party line on CNN and MSNBC and time they want also, correct? That contributes nothing to the commentary.

    What I was clearly saying is if you get your information from CNN and similar outputs and avoid fox news, it would be easy to come to the conclusions that Doc did. Because, like I said, the GOP are bad at getting their message out. They don't get equal tread, because the news is decidedly partizan, and listening to one voice leaves to blind to the other. But really, they suck at PR. Having one or two 'voices' only isn't a PR strategy, it is easy to avoid.

    Our media sucks.
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  6. #656
    Insider PBSteve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    I showed just a page or 4 back where the GOP brought up programs that would have improved on a reporting system that would have done a lot to curb the majority of these incidents. It also addressed mental health.

    It was filibustered by the DNC.
    Speaking of low information comments, we already discussed that they poison pilled it.

    You even had the information, and keep re-hashing the same bullshit.

    Edit: and no, I don't watch fox, nor CNN nor MSNBC. I don't have cable. But I do read FOX's horseshit online from time to time, in fact I recently read an article they published about a local radio host in Pennsylvania thinks the tariff might be good depending on the details. Google puts them on my suggested reading. When I feel like being completely misanthropic I head to townhall.com or Brietbart.

    But yeah, poor, poor conservatives, nobody understands or listens to them, what with control of most statehouses, both houses of Congress and the presidency. We should all feel bad for the outcast, ignored, maligned conservative.

    Oh, and inb4 "this is how you get 4 more years of Trump".
    Last edited by PBSteve; 03-05-2018 at 02:55 AM.
    Ever so many citizens of this republic think they ought to believe that the Universe is a monarchy, and therefore they are always at odds with the republic. -Alan Watts

    I work for the company building the Paragon

  7. #657
    https://www.npr.org/2017/10/05/55558...aws-don-t-work

    This is worth a read. Basically, local gun laws are pretty worthless and don't really tell us anything about the effectiveness of more uniformed regulation

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    we realized it some some small issues that instead of trying to work on, they just filibustered the whole thing.
    FTFY.

    When you use an absolute, you leave your position weak to the smallest exception.

    When you lead with an absolute like "but have done nothing about" and I show that yeah, they did try (but the DNC shut it down), I have invalidated your entire statement because you used an absolute. If you stopped using absolutes as if they have some truth to them you would actually have a base to start a point from. Instead of just demonizing a political group as your virtue signalling requires you to.

    A statement like "They have tried some positions that may be beneficial but often with trailers that are not always palletable to those who prefer gun control, or might argue on a states or cities ability to self regulate." then you have made a statement I couldn't dismiss with one inconvenient fact. It has strength of nuance, definable facts and positions that accept that attempts have been made, and would actually be a statement I would totally agree with, and the argument could proceed to the strong wording of the second portion of the 2A, and then we can bring up the Founding Father's quotes, which are quite specific on this. It would have shown understanding, vs grandstanding.

    There is the potential in you Steve to actually be an intelligent debater. To do so, you have to stop using absolutes, and have to start understanding the other side of the debate. Being one sided and acting like Gordon doesn't do anything for anybody.

    That being said:

    The media coverage of Trump is significantly worse than normal, which is normally only slightly positive for Obama/Clinton vs slightly negative Bush/McCain/Romney, to dramatically negative, at 80-95% negative by some sources. In cases like this, where a huge town hall was setup by CNN just to shame people, then ignore others who want to talk about this problem, says a lot. But then, their viewership just dropped 30% this last month. So...

    This is worth a read. Basically, local gun laws are pretty worthless and don't really tell us anything about the effectiveness of more uniformed regulation
    Well, that kinda has been part of the point - killing people is illegal, killing with guns more illegal, killing with guns on school grounds is even more illegal, and killing with guns on schools with a certain type of gun is more illegal, so lets add a bit more to it and hope it works this time?

    Though, as I pointed out, it is a culture issue related to gangs, and when you remove that element from the death rate by guns our gun death rate is equal to Europe, and even our mass shooting ratio is mid-Europe. The outlier is our gang culture.

    You remove that factor and the gun deaths, and homicides in general put us on level with Europe. And if you removed just those small areas in a city that tend to have higher gun restrictions, and lower gun ownership (urban) vs areas that have higher gun ownership (rural) the firearm factor become null and void.

    The argument has a lot to do with trying to regulate all the people, including the vast majority who own firearms in rural areas, whereas the people in those urban areas with gang culture are not going to follow those laws. The result is areas where law abiding citizens with high crime rates can't carry a means of defense, and the gangs will carry because that is what they do.

    The Predators will not drop their teeth and claws, yet you remove the defense from the prey to protect themselves with. I would say that they are worse than worthless. They hurt those who need the most protection.
    Last edited by pbjosh; 03-05-2018 at 09:58 AM.
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  9. #659
    Insider PBSteve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    FTFY.
    You're not that naiive.
    Ever so many citizens of this republic think they ought to believe that the Universe is a monarchy, and therefore they are always at odds with the republic. -Alan Watts

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  10. #660
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    I am not, but it was just an attempt to be funny.

    That being said - can you describe why you feel those riders were totally unacceptable? I want to know your thoughts on it, in depth. Like I have mentioned before - I come from a Gun Culture that respects firearms and is comfortable with them. I do not understand the fear all that well.
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