Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 42

Thread: Empire Sniper question/suggestion

  1. #1
    Insider noclue119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    324

    Empire Sniper question/suggestion

    1. Is there any way to make the sniper's hammer cocking point and bolt clearing the breech point the same? Right now the hammer cocks before the bolt clears the breech. It is very easy to short stroke.
    It seems like I need to either shorten the bolt, make the hammer slot longer or both. Does that seem correct?

    2. The other issue I had was trying to figure out why the gun likes to out of the valve area.
    There are two cause of these:
    a. The main reason is because if you tightened the valve retaining screw(even a little bit), it will cause the gun to leak down the barrel.
    or
    b. The blue loctite that comes from the factory does not do a good enough job of securing the screw to the body. I have seen 2 guns where that screw backed out and the gun leaked out of the frame.
    Currently the only way to deal with this is to tighten the screw down and back it out at least 1/2 a turn and use loctite on that screw to make sure it is held in place.

    I wish the design was in such a way that the frame will hold that valve screw in place. This way you don't have to guess what is the correct tension for the valve screw. Also in the manual's troubleshooting guide, you can say: "Don't over tighten the valve screw as it will cause leaks down the barrel."

  2. #2
    Insider noclue119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    324
    One other thing, I noticed is that during re-assembly, a lot of people are not careful to ensure the pump arms are the exact same length when attached to the sled. All they do is tighten so that the threads are completely hidden. This causes massive binding and scratching of the body anno near the sled

  3. #3
    Insider PBSteve's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    3,081
    Quote Originally Posted by noclue119 View Post
    1. Is there any way to make the sniper's hammer cocking point and bolt clearing the breech point the same? Right now the hammer cocks before the bolt clears the breech. It is very easy to short stroke.
    It seems like I need to either shorten the bolt, make the hammer slot longer or both. Does that seem correct?
    I don't think you want to do that. Changing the point where the sear resets won't change whether or not you're failing to completely chamber a ball, and changing that point will probably result in being able to chamber a ball without resetting the hammer. In that case you'll have a ball chambered, but you'll have to manually re-cock the hammer to fire.

    With a pump, "short stroking" is a result of user error and not a timing issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by noclue119 View Post
    2. The other issue I had was trying to figure out why the gun likes to out of the valve area.
    There are two cause of these:
    a. The main reason is because if you tightened the valve retaining screw(even a little bit), it will cause the gun to leak down the barrel.
    or
    b. The blue loctite that comes from the factory does not do a good enough job of securing the screw to the body. I have seen 2 guns where that screw backed out and the gun leaked out of the frame.
    Currently the only way to deal with this is to tighten the screw down and back it out at least 1/2 a turn and use loctite on that screw to make sure it is held in place.

    I wish the design was in such a way that the frame will hold that valve screw in place. This way you don't have to guess what is the correct tension for the valve screw. Also in the manual's troubleshooting guide, you can say: "Don't over tighten the valve screw as it will cause leaks down the barrel."
    I'm going to assume you're referring to the set screw on the bottom and not the valve jam nut. If you over-tighten the set screw you're putting a lateral force on the valve body o-rings, which is why it begins to leak. If the set screw backs out, clean the screw threads, hole, and re-apply well mixed blue loctite. They may not have done a good job of keeping the loctite mixed when applied at the factory, because properly applied it should hold fine. If you ever want to get the valve out again, DO NOT use red.

    If you used the frame to hold the "valve screw" (you'd have to make it a pin) in place you'd just transfer the problem to the frame screws.

  4. #4
    Insider noclue119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    324
    Quote Originally Posted by PBSteve View Post
    With a pump, "short stroking" is a result of user error and not a timing issue.
    You are right however, I don't do that often. But I see teammate and first time pump players do it all the time. They blame the gun saying it is defective. It is more of a user experience thing. I do software so the thing I can compare this to is a hard reset button(data wipe). I don't usually want to leave that button on the home screen for someone to accidentally press. Because even if you give the user plenty of warning("Do you want to erase your data?", "Are you sure", etc), their argument will be why is it there/why was it designed that way?


    Quote Originally Posted by PBSteve View Post
    I'm going to assume you're referring to the set screw on the bottom and not the valve jam nut. If you over-tighten the set screw you're putting a lateral force on the valve body o-rings, which is why it begins to leak. If the set screw backs out, apply more blue loctite. They may not have done a good job of keeping the loctite mixed when applied at the factory, because properly applied it should hold fine. If you ever want to get the valve out again, DO NOT use red.

    If you used the frame to hold the "valve screw" (you'd have to make it a pin) in place you'd just transfer the problem to the frame screws.
    The snipers user piranha valve bodies so the set screw is the only thing holding the valve in. There is no valve jam nut like in most cockers. This is why it is critical that the set screw does not back out.
    Last edited by noclue119; 10-17-2012 at 12:56 PM.

  5. #5
    Insider PBSteve's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    3,081
    Ah, didn't realize that, I haven't read the manual thoroughly or taken one apart. Still, the point about loctite stands - make sure it's well mixed and applied to clean threads and blue should hold with plenty of force.

    Quote Originally Posted by noclue119 View Post
    You are right however, I don't do that often. But I see teammate and first time pump players do it all the time. They blame the gun saying it is defective. It is more of a user experience thing. I do software so the thing I can compare this to is a hard reset button(data wipe). I don't usually want to leave that button on the home screen for someone to accidentally press. Because even if you give the user plenty of warning("Do you want to erase your data?", "Are you sure", etc), their argument will be why is it there/why was it designed that way?
    Well Simon would have to chime in on that, but I think my reasoning for why it was done like that is fairly sound. Like short stroking an autococker, it's something they'll just have to pick up after a day or two of play. You might be able to get a little distance by backing the pump arms out a touch, but I don't know what the clearance is for the hole on the bottom of the bolt for something like that.
    Last edited by PBSteve; 10-17-2012 at 01:01 PM.

  6. #6
    Insider noclue119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    324
    Quote Originally Posted by PBSteve View Post
    Ah, didn't realize that, I haven't read the manual thoroughly or taken one apart. Still, the point about loctite stands - make sure it's well mixed and applied to clean threads and blue should hold with plenty of force.
    I now know the issue and am certainly aware of that now. But there is no mention of that in the manual. For me it was trial and error until i figured out what was going on. But it would save someone the time if it was in the troubleshooting section.
    Last edited by noclue119; 10-17-2012 at 01:03 PM.

  7. #7
    Insider noclue119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    324
    Backing out the pump arm won't fix the breech clearing and hammer cocking problem.

    I tired my S6.5 bolt which is shorter than the Empire sniper bolt (when attached to the bolt pin) and it almost fixed the problem(1/4 of in off still)

  8. #8
    Yeah, I made a Boss Bolt for my Sniper for that very reason. Works great.

  9. #9
    When we got involved with making the Sniper pump there was a prototype Karnivore pump from Jeff Orr and the guys down at K2.

    They had it set up that way, and at the time they were preaching how well they knew the guns so we went with it. (Now I wouldn't be so trusting).

    I have never had an issue with short stroking it, and would think you would have to be pulling it very gently or slowly to have the hammer cock but not bring the bolt back far enough for a ball to load? I would bet against that being a very likely occurrence during play. I would think someone be more likely to just not fully stroke the pump back and thus be catching a ball. That would happen anyway if someone had the cocking point later or not if it's simply down to them not fully cycling the pump.

    I always thought they did it that way to get the shortest stroke and to ensure the hammer was cocked if a ball was loaded. You always need a little over travel from the point the hammer cocks to make sure it catches reliably. If you had it after the bolt completely cleared the breech then the stroke would also get longer obviously.

    The alternative would be a gun where you can load a ball but not cock the hammer. Would that be any better?

    If we were ever allowed to redo the Sniper I would probably adjust the cocking point back slightly.

    We use the Piranha valve because it is a good valve and we had to keep the cost down on the gun to be able to release it. I don't often hear of them leaking but will look into that. I know that know we are blowing away all expectations of sales with the guns that some have come through with issues and the more guns, the higher that number is even if it's a small percentage.

    I will bet that very few people buying Snipers take the valves out... sometimes we find that the more we put in a manual the more people that shouldn't mess with something screw it up... and those that do take the valve out would have the sense to work out how to fix it, just like you did.

    If we ever get to redo the Sniper I'll get that added to the trouble shooting section.

  10. #10
    Insider noclue119's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    324
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    When we got involved with making the Sniper pump there was a prototype Karnivore pump from Jeff Orr and the guys down at K2.

    They had it set up that way, and at the time they were preaching how well they knew the guns so we went with it. (Now I wouldn't be so trusting).
    You mean this gun? It has exactly the same issue as the Empire Sniper. It would cock before a ball would be loaded.



    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post

    The alternative would be a gun where you can load a ball but not cock the hammer. Would that be any better?

    If we were ever allowed to redo the Sniper I would probably adjust the cocking point back slightly.
    Yes that would be a lot better. In fact both my CCM/PE Cocker does that. Because the hammer cocking has a tactile feedback where as the ball loading does not.
    I'll make you a video later tonight shows you what i mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    We use the Piranha valve because it is a good valve and we had to keep the cost down on the gun to be able to release it. I don't often hear of them leaking but will look into that. I know that know we are blowing away all expectations of sales with the guns that some have come through with issues and the more guns, the higher that number is even if it's a small percentage.

    I will bet that very few people buying Snipers take the valves out... sometimes we find that the more we put in a manual the more people that shouldn't mess with something screw it up... and those that do take the valve out would have the sense to work out how to fix it, just like you did.

    If we ever get to redo the Sniper I'll get that added to the trouble shooting section.
    The valve isn't bad. It is just that the assembly process/loctite used was subpar.

    BTW ya i knew this gun was a hot seller. I told my shop about it last WC and it took me until almost Feb to get my Sniper
    Last edited by noclue119; 04-07-2014 at 11:50 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •