Empire Sniper question/suggestion

[noclue119]

Yeah, I made a Boss Bolt for my Sniper for that very reason. Works great.

Got a link? BTW it is my teammate's gun.... so he would be the one that needs to plop down the money for it.

[Simon]

Yep, that gun. That was the prelude to the Empire Sniper.

Yes that would be a lot better. In fact both my CCM/PE Cocker does that. Because the hammer cocking has a tactile feedback where as the ball loading does not.
I'll make you a video later tonight shows you what i mean.

I know what you mean, I have CCM guns too, but you're seriously suggesting you feel the gun's hammer cocking when you are playing and use that to determine when to push the pump forwards?

In my 20+ years of playing with pump guns I can't say I have ever done that. I pull the pump back until it stops, then push it forward until it stops. I don't think there's ever been an occasion when I would intentionally have done anything else.

As long as you hit both ends of the stroke then the gun will load and fire a ball just fine, doesn't it? If you'd stopped the stroke before the point a ball is loaded then no version of the gun would have loaded and fired a ball would it?

[russc]

Simon, it's definitely a "feel" thing. It's the same as having your cocking rod set too close to the gun on a cocker or sniper. Nothing earth shattering, but it's a small change that results in a major change in the feel of a gun.

Generally speaking, when people tune their (non empire) Snipers you have the hammer cock just as the bolt clears, which leaves you a small sliver of bolt showing when the gun is sitting cocked and at rest. This gives an extremely light pump stroke, with just a light "click" at the end of the stroke rather than fighting the nearly fully compressed spring for an extra quarter stroke. It's an easy adjustment on fullblocks, but halfblocks have to have a proper length slot in the hammer.

[Simon]

I can also see how a hammer cocking after the bolt is back also means the "bolt open" time would be longer due to the longer stroke and thus making it easier to load a ball as the time for the ball to drop in is much longer. This would especially help with non forcefeed hoppers where it takes 65+ms for a ball to load. Anyone using a gravity hopper would see the issue more. I tend to use forcefeed hoppers even on my pump guns so it wouldn't make much difference in those circumstances.

I'll take a look but it may be pretty simple to make the cocking stroke longer on the gun. Making the cocking point further back would need a modification to the slot in the hammer I think. Making the slot longer would work.

[noclue119]

I'll take a look but it may be pretty simple to make the cocking stroke longer on the gun. Making the cocking point further back would need a modification to the slot in the hammer I think. Making the slot longer would work.

How would you make the cocking stroke longer?

As for the hammer slot you are right. I took my S6.5 hammer and bolt and stuck it in the sniper. It made the cocking point and bolt clearing point almost the same. Sniper Bolt and Hammer on left.

[Simon]

Lengthening the slot on the hammer will mean it cocks later, just need to make sure it cocks before you run out of stroke.

I would need to do some checking, but lengthening the stroke may be as simple as making the hole in the pump deeper. (we could start by taking out the bumper inside the hole and seeing if that .1" helps. We may run into the back of the slot in the gun body. If so then that would need to be lengthened too... that's harder.

Went and grabbed my gun and the files to check some stuff...

Distance from the bumper to tip of the guide rod is 1.05"

Distance from the tip of the bolt to the back of the feedneck is .97"

It looks on my gun that the pump bottoms out just 5-10 thou before the bolt pin hits the back of the slot.

So removing the pump bumper would only likely mean we hit the back of the slot with the bolt pin.

Next thing to try is elongating the slot in the hammer.

Did you try the CCM hammer with the Empire Bolt? What's the result then? It should cock a little later I believe.

[noclue119]

Did you try the CCM hammer with the Empire Bolt? What's the result then? It should cock a little later I believe.

Empire with stock hammer and stock bolt


This is the CCM Hammer + Empire Bolt it does cock a little later but still not enough for the bolt to clear the breech.
There is about 1/3 of the o-ring + the tip sticking out when the hammer is cocked.

[Simon]

So the second set up will give you cocking at a point further back. Does this reduce the issues you were having?

I can see how the gun cocking later and picking up the hammer later can mean the pump stroke doesn't get heavier until later in the stroke, and maybe allow an easier pump stroke.

I still don't understand how the issue can be the point at which the hammer cocks as long as the pump is cycled fully (since either way you have to pull the bolt fully open for the gun to load and be able to shoot) but more the resulting time the bolt is open for loading a ball.

i.e. With the gun cocking sooner and with a shorter stroke you simply don't have time for a gravity ball to always load.

I wonder if the overall pump stroke on a CCM is longer than on the Sniper.

But ultimately a lighter easier pump stroke that encourages you to hold the bolt open long enough for a ball to load is the goal, not the actual point the hammer gets cocked (which is pretty much irrelevant as long as a full stroke is completed and a ball loads.).

[Simon]

I notice the CCM bolt doesn't try to seal the breech and has no front o-ring. So it can move further back for the same pump stroke.

I couldn't find my T2 but I grabbed my J2 and the pump stroke is indeed longer by .1" at 1.15" and it goes back way further past the back of the feedneck opening so I believe the difference you are seeing is due to the shorter stroke on the Sniper and thus the reduced feed time for a ball while the bolt is open, and not to do with the point at which the hammer cocks.

The answer to the problem being, use a force feed hopper, or increase the bolt stroke on the rear end to give a longer load time.

To increase the rear end travel you will need to make the slot in the body longer, and cut down the pump guide rod by the same amount, or drill the hole deeper in the pump itself. I would still keep the pump bumper though.

[noclue119]

Yep this fixes most of what I was concerned about.

Also, I guess I always used guns that would would cock and chamber the ball at the same time. Thus, I trained myself to pump that far while practicing at home. I didn't realize on some guns the bolt needs to further back to chamber the ball. Which makes sense why I am more likely to short stoke the Sniper and that Karnivor.

Finally, the pump length makes a lot of sense.