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Thread: fundamental issues in paintball that if we hit the reset button today, we'd fix

  1. #31
    pewpewpew vijil's Avatar
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    And go kart teams spend thousands of dollars tweaking their karts to be as fast as possible. I suppose that means they should all quit and start F1 teams because it's faster? By that logic nobody would ever play pump, yourself included (and that's how I know you're trolling). We'd all use simunitions instead. The fact people spend money on small advantages in no way proves that our system is borked. Many players spend very little on an edge, myself included. Heck I'ma buy an airowgun for the challenge.

    If we were starting from scratch I'd probably advocate .50 cal shaped rounds at 450 fps, and insurance requirements negotiated to match rather than the 300fps we now have to deal with on .50 rounds. Shaped projectiles could have worked if they existed from the beginning and the costs would come down - perhaps they'd be sold in an industry standard package designed to easily load a magazine in one motion so you don't have to do it one at a time. Speedball would still exist I'm sure, but I'm not convinced that a bigger field and longer range engagements = a better game. In fact I'd suggest the opposite, the fact that current paintball rewards players for getting up close is a *good* thing from a spectator position and for me as a player. Vert feed hoppers mean nothing to a speedballer and certainly don't get in the way.

    Thats the crux really. You could have a version of paintball where the paint is far more accurate over longer ranges, just as cheap etc. and that would be great for certain types of paintball - but for other types like speedball it wouldn't make jack all difference to the fun factor. If anything it could potentially be *less* fun. Less noise. Less chaos. Less bunkering. Less up close firefights where you can see the whites of their eyes. Less adrenaline.
    Last edited by vijil; 01-14-2013 at 10:59 PM.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by vijil View Post
    And go kart teams spend thousands of dollars tweaking their karts to be as fast as possible. I suppose that means they should all quit and start F1 teams because it's faster? By that logic nobody would ever play pump, yourself included (and that's how I know you're trolling). We'd all use simunitions instead. The fact people spend money on small advantages in no way proves that our system is borked. Many players spend very little on an edge, myself included. Heck I'ma buy an airowgun for the challenge.

    If we were starting from scratch I'd probably advocate .50 cal shaped rounds at 450 fps, and insurance requirements negotiated to match rather than the 300fps we now have to deal with on .50 rounds. Shaped projectiles could have worked if they existed from the beginning and the costs would come down - perhaps they'd be sold in an industry standard package designed to easily load a magazine in one motion so you don't have to do it one at a time. Speedball would still exist I'm sure, but I'm not convinced that a bigger field and longer range engagements = a better game. In fact I'd suggest the opposite, the fact that current paintball rewards players for getting up close is a *good* thing from a spectator position and for me as a player. Vert feed hoppers mean nothing to a speedballer and certainly don't get in the way.

    Thats the crux really. You could have a version of paintball where the paint is far more accurate over longer ranges, just as cheap etc. and that would be great for certain types of paintball - but for other types like speedball it wouldn't make jack all difference to the fun factor. If anything it could potentially be *less* fun. Less noise. Less chaos. Less bunkering. Less up close firefights where you can see the whites of their eyes. Less adrenaline.
    If I may chime in on a somewhat old thread, you've hit the nail on the head that the OP loses sight of the reason people play paintball in the first place -- to have fun. Not necessarily to accurately put a projectile on a target, that can be accomplished at a shooting range. If that target cannot shoot back at you, it's only so fun compared to a game of closer engagement. When the sport started there was a bit of shakeout in projectiles, and though we did end up with the largest common size due to ballistics, I submit that we haven't really needed to change from that size because those ballistics are so "right."

    When I first tried airsoft, I was struck by how different it was to not be able to see your projectiles or projectiles flying at you. I didn't realize how much that feedback played into my enjoyment of the game -- and my skill at the game. The effective range of a paintball coincides with a good unaided visual range that allows you to see the entire flight of your ball and judge the results of your shot at all ranges. But once you lose that connection between your shot and your target, it's simply not the same. Indeed, that's part of the very point of paintball -- seeing your hits and confirming your eliminations. The less accurate projectile keeps engagements ranges from becoming too long for that.

    Also, I would think that getting sniped out constantly from long range would potentially have a negative effect on new players to paintball. Getting whacked without ever seeing who or why leaves a feeling of helplessness, like you are not good at the game and have no idea how to get better. But if you can at least see your opponent, see him shoot the ball and see it coming to hit you, you understand what happened and what you can try to do better in the future.

    If I were starting from scratch hmm ... maybe I would say, have the highest level paintball tournament competition be stock class, or some fairly limited pump class.

  3. #33
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    By the way, for all our technological advances, there still really isn't a better option than vertical feed for bulk loading fragile gelatin projectiles filled with paint into a repeating launcher. If there was, it would see wide adoption.

  4. #34
    Insider noclue119's Avatar
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    I have another suggestions on how to reset paintball. I realized this when I was taking a skiing/snowboarding trip with friends to VT.

    Take Skiing, Skiing prices are pretty high but the average income is also very high.
    "On average, skiers have a greater annual income than the average American with 92.9% of skiers making in excess of $50,000/yr and 46.1% making in excess of $100,000/yr compared to the median American income of $49,77" - http://www.mrablog.com/explaining-sk...-demographics/

    The biggest issue with paintball is:
    Paintball = skiing/snowboarding prices
    but
    Most paintball player income = minimum wage or below average income level
    I am not sure how to fix this part.


    On the other hand, my wife is willing to ski but not play paintball. Keep in mind she got more bruises in 1 day of skiing than she did in 1 day of paintball. Why is this?
    You are not competing with anyone else by yourself in skiing/snowboarding. Thus it is seen as a self improvement sport.
    In paintball, the first time you play, you are throw into a competition(the other team vs my team). There is really no place for self improvement.
    This is easily fixable by having timed practice/obstacle courses at the field where you can shoot targets. This is also why first timers love going into the chrono range and shooting a string/pole/plate/etc.

    I made the suggestion to my wife and she said if we can get excise and not got shot, she is 100% all for it.
    Last edited by noclue119; 02-28-2013 at 11:12 AM.

  5. #35
    Insider PBSteve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noclue119 View Post
    On the other hand, my wife is willing to ski but not play paintball. Keep in mind she got more bruises in 1 day of skiing than she did in 1 day of paintball. Why is this?
    You are not competing with anyone else by yourself in skiing/snowboarding. Thus it is seen as a self improvement sport.
    In paintball, the first time you play, you are throw into a competition(the other team vs my team). There is really no place for self improvement.
    This is easily fixable by having timed practice/obstacle courses at the field where you can shoot targets. This is also why first timers love going into the chrono range and shooting a string/pole/plate/etc.

    I made the suggestion to my wife and she said if we can get excise and not got shot, she is 100% all for it.
    I think the real issue here is that in skiing, you can directly choose the level at which you're going to "play", and it is obvious when you get punished for biting off more than you can chew. However, it was your choice so it's easier to accept the punishment. As a novice paintballer, it's very difficult to see where you might have made a mistake. In addition, you don't have much choice about the level of play at most fields. Because there is little perception of control over when you get shot, people feel robbed of a "sense of agency" - to get a little too deep into psychology for a moment. Therefore, to a beginner it might feel like you're being punished just for being on the field.

    An interesting point, and if my hypothesis is correct it is clearly an issue.

  6. #36
    First off, I'm in an airport coming home from PBE, I've played twice in 5years...

    Going off what Gordon said. Lets not talk money. At all. Hell lets step completely back for abit . And try and see where the sport would go no matter where we reset to!

    The core is, what makes paintball fun? What makes it easy and fun for the first time player? Who grows the sport? Rec players or pros?

    Lets say we stretch out the ranges. Field size may go up, but now we need more refs! Lot harder to keep that guy in the back honest when its hard for YOU to see a break vs bounce, let alone the refs. Now we need more people NOT playing, to let you play.... yeah, I don't like reffing either.

    When little jimmy goes out, does he want to spend time loading ammo? Or shooting at stuff? If I could just dump a box of 223 into my rifle, id get to spend more time looking through the glass and taking shoots. Sign me up. Even more so if I could do that while reaching out 600yds!

    IF you want long ranges you've got to stop cheating. Laser tag ish? But then we've got to wear sensors, how to stop people blocking them? Etc...

    So what's fun about paintball to your average person? Shooting some one and knowing you hit them! Second. Its winning!

    Heck lets really push this. Real guns have very long ranges and are very accurate, and are no fun to be on the other end off. Yet why do you see so much close quarters combat going on? Its effective for "winning" what do we have more of? Snipers or QCB? in the last 100 years modern military arms have been having their effective ranges reduced. And ammo capicities and rof increased,

    Moving this back to paintball! People will engage as closely as they can where human reaction times and speeds means they can still make it one place to the other (moving up or snapping) with a reasonable success rate. (I'm not good on game therory ask a different major for the lower limit range for those of different mental states)

    Hell we can look at video games for this! Lets assume no cheating... what is most popular? Whats the most common engament distance? Hell Snipers only match on a large map, ill give it 15mintues before a 12yo shoots you point blank while screaming profanity and making rude gestures. Then another 5 for you to try the same thing.

    Once we figure out where we will always end up. We can really tune the gear to make that as easy, fun, and safe, for as many people as possible!

  7. #37
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    Red dot field of view is also an issue esp in long range game and for me the best gun for perfect vision is the Wrek Project Salvo Sniper. It is a high performance but easy to use system, perfectly suited for beginners and pros alike.
    The red dot is a larger tube that gives you a wider field of view than the average rifle.
    It actually means that the red dot is adjustable and it can be zoomed to achieve your perfect window for tracking and capturing your aim, even if you have your mask on.
    These features make Wrek one of the best long range paintball guns that will let you rule the game. Of note is that it*s heavy but you don*t have to hoist on your shoulder the 6lbs all day as it comes with a metallic bipod. The bipod is adaptable for use with other guns.
    It also has a high performance 16 inch barrel whose interior is ultra-smooth to raise air flow efficiency and ultimately noiseless accuracy over the long range.

  8. #38
    Insider PBSteve's Avatar
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  9. #39
    Insider imped4now's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarahaw View Post
    Red dot field of view is also an issue esp in long range game and for me the best gun for perfect vision is the Wrek Project Salvo Sniper. It is a high performance but easy to use system, perfectly suited for beginners and pros alike.
    The red dot is a larger tube that gives you a wider field of view than the average rifle.
    It actually means that the red dot is adjustable and it can be zoomed to achieve your perfect window for tracking and capturing your aim, even if you have your mask on.
    These features make Wrek one of the best long range paintball guns that will let you rule the game. Of note is that it*s heavy but you don*t have to hoist on your shoulder the 6lbs all day as it comes with a metallic bipod. The bipod is adaptable for use with other guns.
    It also has a high performance 16 inch barrel whose interior is ultra-smooth to raise air flow efficiency and ultimately noiseless accuracy over the long range.
    Barf.
    OlllllllO

  10. #40
    To be fair slapping $60 worth of accessories on a $150 marker and marking it up to $300 is not helping anyone in the sport other than taking advantage of the newbies that dont know better....

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