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Thread: fundamental issues in paintball that if we hit the reset button today, we'd fix

  1. #1

    fundamental issues in paintball that if we hit the reset button today, we'd fix

    1. vertical feed. this is the dumbest thing since FWD. i know how we got it. it makes sense. we went from gravity feed, to agitated with gravity feed, to now almost everything is force feed. and during that transition, we wanted things to be backwards comparable with everything. but here is the fundamental truth: NO ONE SHOOTING AT 10+ BPS IS USING GRAVITY ANYMORE

    there is simply no need, to have vertical feed for most guns anymore. if you want to shoot spheres at high rates of fire, which most folks do, then there is no need for vertical feed.

    and there is every advantage, be it weight, weight disruption, capacity, speed, target profile etc etc etc etc etc to getting that damned hopper off the top of the gun.

    why not?

    the paintball player will reject it for being too weird.

    2. the paintball itself. its the shittiest ballistic shape ever. if i told someone outside of paintball that we shoot large, spherical, light balls at each other, and spend thousands of dollars to do it consistently and accurately, they would laugh me out of the room. its fucking stupid, sorry, it just is.

    there are SO MANY different ways to fundamentally solve the accuracy and range problems here. First strikes are just the tip of the iceberg, designed will too many compromises. why 68 cal? why 1:1 aspect ratio? to be backwards comparable with round balls! its stupid. starting from a blank sheet of paper, you could design SUCH A BETTER AMMUNITION ITS NOT EVEN FUNNY.

    why can't we do this?

    the paintball player would reject it, because it would mean throwing out 99% of paintball fields and strategy because those fields, and that strategy, was designed around a gun with terrible accuracy and range.





    name you own, lets get the brainstorming going. im not talking about little design issues like the DP dump valve being the worst gun design of all time, im talking about issues that we spend hundreds and thousands of man hours to solve a problem that we gave ourselves and we are so short sighted we cannot see past our own fundamental problems.

  2. #2
    Insider PBSteve's Avatar
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    Well if we're going to do this, it's good to stop and actually understand why we are where we are instead of getting upset and ranting.

    Off the top of my head, there are a few reasons not to get away from a spherical paintball:

    1.) It's easy and cheap to manufacture
    2.) You don't have to index the paintball's orientation
    3.) It does a good job of spreading the impact out over a large area
    4.) Limiting range keeps the game fast(er)

    There are a few reasons loaders are still on top of the marker:

    1.) It keeps the loader out of the way of the player, with a more limited chance of impacting the ground
    2.) It's easier/cheaper to make a ball fall faster than it is to fight gravity
    3.) There's a lot of room and nothing else to get in the way so it's easy to make universal

    As for the DP dump valve, it seems to me the next logical evolution of the Ion, which was the next logical evolution of the Shocker/Matrix. Maybe they could have tuned some dimensions better or slightly altered the geometry (I'm a bigger fan of the TechT geometry myself) but it's far from the worst gun design of all time.

    Anyway, with these things in mind along with your complaints...now we can start brainstorming.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by PBSteve View Post
    Well if we're going to do this, it's good to stop and actually understand why we are where we are instead of getting upset and ranting.

    Off the top of my head, there are a few reasons not to get away from a spherical paintball:

    1.) It's easy and cheap to manufacture
    2.) You don't have to index the paintball's orientation
    3.) It does a good job of spreading the impact out over a large area
    4.) Limiting range keeps the game fast(er)

    There are a few reasons loaders are still on top of the marker:

    1.) It keeps the loader out of the way of the player, with a more limited chance of impacting the ground
    2.) It's easier/cheaper to make a ball fall faster than it is to fight gravity
    3.) There's a lot of room and nothing else to get in the way so it's easy to make universal

    As for the DP dump valve, it seems to me the next logical evolution of the Ion, which was the next logical evolution of the Shocker/Matrix. Maybe they could have tuned some dimensions better or slightly altered the geometry (I'm a bigger fan of the TechT geometry myself) but it's far from the worst gun design of all time.

    Anyway, with these things in mind along with your complaints...now we can start brainstorming.
    i know why we are here, thats not the point. we spend anywhere from 30-150 dollars a day to shoot spherical, lightweight balls at each other, after of course an initial investment of 300-2000+ dollars in equipment. that's no small amount of money. and its consistent. paint goes up, paint goes down, people still spend the same amount of money to play as they always did. they will buy as much equipment as they can afford, and shoot as deep into there pockets as they can.

    it is silly and unwise to waste that money on ultimately a terribly ineffective way to achieve the stated goals of the game. the point here in this thread, is to talk about how rather then how we have gotten to this point, what we would do to actually change the fundamental problems, with fundamental solutions. rather then stacking band-aide upon band aide at the problems.

    why do we use the form we do when we play? to cover up the fact that the gun is awkward mostly because of the loader. why do we play on postage stamp sized fields? because the projectiles we shoot at each other are terrible.
    Last edited by cockerpunk; 01-03-2013 at 10:05 PM.

  4. #4
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    'Cocker' threads. Shoot, most barrel threads.

    ASA threads - we could use something smaller.

    The First Strike rounds are superior - they also are very expensive. So was paint in the beginning (first time I played, $.20 a ball.) The cost of paint does lead to round rounds, and all the related infastructure. But most play is close combat. Even if FS were $.02 a ball.

    A decade ago this would have been a very long list - now, not so much. Equipment more then 10 years ago was often not sport specific (goggles, jerseys, pants, 12gram holders) and air supplies were just getting okay. There were quite a few compromises. Now? Specific air systems built to size, play style, masks are not based on motorcross, the softgood are very well made and designed to play in, and the guns are just about perfect compared to the old VMs, Tippmanns, original cockers and the like. You used to buy a spyder and have to fix it up. Now they are very solid markers stock.

    I think the industry as a whole has done a fairly good job of gelling up. The .50cal had potential, and still does to a point.

    I think the next couple of years is going to see a major improvement on many fronts. I think there is going to be more FS round usage in big games and UWL, we are seeing a serious push for mag fed and similar markers.

    But to many guns still have to deal with big large ASA threads and cocker threads as popular and standard threading, I would like to see more Phantom threads availible.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    'Cocker' threads. Shoot, most barrel threads.

    ASA threads - we could use something smaller.

    The First Strike rounds are superior - they also are very expensive. So was paint in the beginning (first time I played, $.20 a ball.) The cost of paint does lead to round rounds, and all the related infastructure. But most play is close combat. Even if FS were $.02 a ball.

    A decade ago this would have been a very long list - now, not so much. Equipment more then 10 years ago was often not sport specific (goggles, jerseys, pants, 12gram holders) and air supplies were just getting okay. There were quite a few compromises. Now? Specific air systems built to size, play style, masks are not based on motorcross, the softgood are very well made and designed to play in, and the guns are just about perfect compared to the old VMs, Tippmanns, original cockers and the like. You used to buy a spyder and have to fix it up. Now they are very solid markers stock.

    I think the industry as a whole has done a fairly good job of gelling up. The .50cal had potential, and still does to a point.

    I think the next couple of years is going to see a major improvement on many fronts. I think there is going to be more FS round usage in big games and UWL, we are seeing a serious push for mag fed and similar markers.

    But to many guns still have to deal with big large ASA threads and cocker threads as popular and standard threading, I would like to see more Phantom threads availible.
    no, i disagree, the list has only gotten longer, and will get longer as we continue to pile band-aides on the fundamental problems with paintball.

    the reason we all play close combat type stuff is because of the round ball.

    cocker threads is a good one though

  6. #6
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    In the end I feel we would have reverted to a round ball because of cost and ease of feed.

    Given even the price for a FS round being equal to the price of current paint, due to the ease of feeding and the far smaller package to hold it you would see .68 rounds fitting in because of that.

    FS, at best, could be loaded into Q-loaders or similar. You can hold twice the number in a standard pod.

    It would kind of be the .50 cal argument. Except .68 cal would work in the range that people are accurate and get into firefight with on a regular basis. After 100ft, most people don't hit things. Shoot, in firefights 'trained officers' often miss people at near point blank range.

    While I agree on the tournament side hitting reset and having only FS rounds hit the market first, there would be larger, more technical fields. But give your front players far more rounds possible and a fast feeding setup that is lighter and they are able to carry more in a smaller package (just a couple pods, smaller TS1 styler loader) and they would go in to eat them up. I remember when we went from a simple game style to run and gun. In the end, run and gun wins. That dictated the game style, the fast aggressive paint hungry play works and well! Give players the faster feeding, faster loading, more rounds per shot reset, I wouldn't be surprised if .50 cal would be a better choice. Cheaper, more per loader/pod, well suited for aggressive play.

    Edit: Also add smaller tanks, less kick, higher ROF (less bolt travel) less pain, smaller hoppers, shorter bolt travel (for simpler internals) and the list goes on.

    You know, I would say reset to .50 cal.
    Last edited by pbjosh; 01-04-2013 at 10:00 AM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by pbjosh View Post
    In the end I feel we would have reverted to a round ball because of cost and ease of feed.

    Given even the price for a FS round being equal to the price of current paint, due to the ease of feeding and the far smaller package to hold it you would see .68 rounds fitting in because of that.

    FS, at best, could be loaded into Q-loaders or similar. You can hold twice the number in a standard pod.

    It would kind of be the .50 cal argument. Except .68 cal would work in the range that people are accurate and get into firefight with on a regular basis. After 100ft, most people don't hit things. Shoot, in firefights 'trained officers' often miss people at near point blank range.

    While I agree on the tournament side hitting reset and having only FS rounds hit the market first, there would be larger, more technical fields. But give your front players far more rounds possible and a fast feeding setup that is lighter and they are able to carry more in a smaller package (just a couple pods, smaller TS1 styler loader) and they would go in to eat them up. I remember when we went from a simple game style to run and gun. In the end, run and gun wins. That dictated the game style, the fast aggressive paint hungry play works and well! Give players the faster feeding, faster loading, more rounds per shot reset, I wouldn't be surprised if .50 cal would be a better choice. Cheaper, more per loader/pod, well suited for aggressive play.

    Edit: Also add smaller tanks, less kick, higher ROF (less bolt travel) less pain, smaller hoppers, shorter bolt travel (for simpler internals) and the list goes on.

    You know, I would say reset to .50 cal.
    people will shoot the amount the can afford, in whatever the selected ammunition we decide on. FS rounds are no more expensive, 50 cal is no cheaper, just the amount fired is scaled by the cost. the actual cost of a day of play, will be the same, regardless of the selected ammunition.

  8. #8
    Insider PBSteve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    FS rounds are no more expensive, 50 cal is no cheaper
    This is just flat out wrong. FS rounds are more expensive to manufacture, even at scale, and 50 cal is far cheaper just looking at shipping costs. And the number of FS rounds that can be fired is scaled by more than cost, it's also scaled by fundamental equipment limitations. Having to index your ammunition isn't free.
    Last edited by PBSteve; 01-04-2013 at 11:57 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by PBSteve View Post
    This is just flat out wrong. FS rounds are more expensive to manufacture, even at scale, and 50 cal is far cheaper just looking at shipping costs. And the number of FS rounds that can be fired is scaled by more than cost, it's also scaled by fundamental equipment limitations. Having to index your ammunition isn't free.
    you are missing my point.

  10. #10
    What shape of projectile could you load into pods/hoppers as quickly and easily as a sphere while taking up as little room and requiring no particular orientation in the pod/hopper/barrel?

    Edit: Coming from tournament player perspective here. I can come off the field, open a bag of paint and load 500 balls into pods and get them in my pack in well under a minute, leaving me over a minute to clean up, air up, and get back on the field for the next point.
    Last edited by sumorai; 01-04-2013 at 01:46 PM.

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