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Thread: fundamental issues in paintball that if we hit the reset button today, we'd fix

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    so you care more about your convenience in the staging area, then actually hitting what you are aiming at on the field?

    i mean sure, here is an example of how equally stupid that comment is. say i want to race cars. i could, go buy a stock car, and go race it. i will lose every single race that allows modified cars. but you know what, modified cars are annoying, temperamental and unreliable. they require intelligence to modify, experience to setup, and still are tricky to use in anything but ideal conditions. but what do i care? my stock car is really convenient in the pits, on track its garbage, but who cares about what happens on track right? what happens on track doesn't determine the winner or looser or anything ....

    thats just more then a little short sighted.

    you guys are failing to see the point the of this thread. you are the nerds in the maze, the point of this thread is to talk about what the maze is, and previous decisions made by the players, have created the maze. we created MOST of the problems in paintball by being dumb when we started shooting at each other. we are so far down this path, you can't even see where we went wrong.
    I already hit the things I'm shooting at using the products that are available right now. Are they 100% accurate at all ranges and in all conditions? Nope. Could they be better? Maybe. But I feel that anything that would make them better is going to have other negative aspects. Take First Strike rounds, for example. Sure, they may have better range or accuracy, but I can't load them anywhere near quickly enough for the game I play.

    The products we use work great for the game I play and are vastly more convenient than any other product. And everyone I play against is using the same product basically, so your argument about race cars is invalid.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    do solders need a masters degree in physics to load and operate there weapons?
    Quote Originally Posted by pote View Post
    Also I'm pretty sure soldiers have 20X more weapons training than the average paintballer has working knowledge of their equipment
    And yet, in comparison to paintball, they also can't take plastic containers, dump bullets into them, and then dump that container of bullets into their gun and keep shooting while doing so.

  3. #23
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    Water-based fills so that capacitive sensors can be used for chronographs. Would cut chrony prices down to $10-$20 and dramatically improve battery life.

    Metric everything - 15/16"-20, 1/2 NPS, .68, 1/8 NPT.

    Brittle bioplastic-shelled teardrop-shaped rounds inside a disintegrating sabot made of starch foam (packing peanuts), sold in a rectangular clip. Costs would be in line with buying rimfire ammo.
    That said, I really really enjoy close-quarters (and I love 50 cal, lets me take close shots on younger players without worrying about injuries). We used to shoot each other with slug guns in the bush as kids, getting hit by someone hiding miles away wasn't nearly as fun as charging a bunker with a bit of paint. It's the reason I don't play airsoft.
    Last edited by neftaly; 01-07-2013 at 02:38 AM.

  4. #24
    Insider noclue119's Avatar
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    Remember the best technology doesn't always win. We have seen that over and over again.

  5. #25
    pewpewpew vijil's Avatar
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    ack... are you trolling, Gordon?

    Ultimately paintball is about having fun, and fun doesn't rely on a perfectly designed game. It's like complaining that rental go karts aren't as fast and don't have the roadholding of F1 cars, or (since F1 cars exist) complaining that go karts can't hover and go 2000mph. It all has nothing to do with fun. If I'm in a go kart, and you're in a roughly equal go kart, we can have a fun race. So what if we can't both go 2000mph.

    The core of your issue is that you seem to be assuming that longer range engagements, more accuracy and less shooting = more fun. That may be your experience but it's far from universal. I love the close fast firefights, the noise, the colors, the tightly organised strategy on a level playing field, the fact that the nature of the game rewards getting up close and personal. Is the game perfect? Heck no, but neither is any sport. So long as it does what it says on the tin it cannot be called fundamentally broken.

    But that's not really the point of the thread.

    The question is what we'd do different if starting over with existing tech and knowhow and the answer isn't clear. Round balls are cheap and convenient - and since perfect accuracy is not a requirement for fun to most people this is a worthwhile tradeoff. Is there a place for magazine fed shaped projectiles? Sure thing, I love FS rounds. Do I want everyone using them? Not really - having different classes of players is (for me) part of the fun. Would we have hoppers like we do? Probably not, I'm leaning towards box mag type setups or just straight magfed.

    Honestly though, starting from scratch I don't think paintball would exist at all. Immersive Augmented Reality with shock vests so you feel the hits would be the order of the day. It'll take over eventually regardless, the ultimate unification of gaming and real sport. Paintball's lifespan is limited by technological progress so enjoy it while it lasts.
    Last edited by vijil; 01-09-2013 at 06:10 AM.
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  6. #26
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    I think this thread is just one big troll. Things must be a little slow over on TechPB, either that or Gordon's just sick of reading 12 year olds talk about whose barrel is more accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by PBSteve View Post
    ITT: Cockerpunk is right about everything and nobody else here knows what they're talking about.
    Pretty much.

    On the subject of vertical feed: Having the hopper on top of the gun is the best setup to have an even weight distribution, since a hopper full of paint is the heaviest part of any gun setup. That's just physics.

  7. #27
    yup, Gordon is trolling. i've noticed him on AO even more. so i'm guessing that he wants or is trying to get more of a conversation than he's getting at TechPB, since he hasn't posted more than the time he put up the thread.

  8. #28


    as Tom said "you have all been playing the same game of speedball for so long, you cannot understand anything else"

    some people seem to get it:

    Quote Originally Posted by neftaly View Post
    Brittle bioplastic-shelled teardrop-shaped rounds inside a disintegrating sabot made of starch foam (packing peanuts), sold in a rectangular clip. Costs would be in line with buying rimfire ammo.
    That said, I really really enjoy close-quarters (and I love 50 cal, lets me take close shots on younger players without worrying about injuries). We used to shoot each other with slug guns in the bush as kids, getting hit by someone hiding miles away wasn't nearly as fun as charging a bunker with a bit of paint. It's the reason I don't play airsoft.
    thats good thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by vijil View Post
    ack... are you trolling, Gordon?

    Ultimately paintball is about having fun, and fun doesn't rely on a perfectly designed game. It's like complaining that rental go karts aren't as fast and don't have the roadholding of F1 cars, or (since F1 cars exist) complaining that go karts can't hover and go 2000mph. It all has nothing to do with fun. If I'm in a go kart, and you're in a roughly equal go kart, we can have a fun race. So what if we can't both go 2000mph.

    The core of your issue is that you seem to be assuming that longer range engagements, more accuracy and less shooting = more fun. That may be your experience but it's far from universal. I love the close fast firefights, the noise, the colors, the tightly organised strategy on a level playing field, the fact that the nature of the game rewards getting up close and personal. Is the game perfect? Heck no, but neither is any sport. So long as it does what it says on the tin it cannot be called fundamentally broken.

    But that's not really the point of the thread.

    The question is what we'd do different if starting over with existing tech and knowhow and the answer isn't clear. Round balls are cheap and convenient - and since perfect accuracy is not a requirement for fun to most people this is a worthwhile tradeoff. Is there a place for magazine fed shaped projectiles? Sure thing, I love FS rounds. Do I want everyone using them? Not really - having different classes of players is (for me) part of the fun. Would we have hoppers like we do? Probably not, I'm leaning towards box mag type setups or just straight magfed.

    Honestly though, starting from scratch I don't think paintball would exist at all. Immersive Augmented Reality with shock vests so you feel the hits would be the order of the day. It'll take over eventually regardless, the ultimate unification of gaming and real sport. Paintball's lifespan is limited by technological progress so enjoy it while it lasts.
    playing patty cake is also fun, so what?

    when you have thousands of people, spending thousands of dollars to try and get a technological edge - then your "fun" argument dies. because people do, spend thousands of dollars a year, just to try and shoot a paint that is 2% more brittle then the other guy in order to get more breaks on the other team.

    goals inform design. if our goal is to put paint marks on the guys on the other team, then everything i have said is correct. and i state that upfront in my first post.
    Last edited by cockerpunk; 01-14-2013 at 04:48 PM.

  9. #29
    you are forgetting the human element. people make it fun. it takes the person who may have thousands of dollars in equipment to put down the electro and go with a mech or a pump that makes it fun for them. you are assuming that there is a finite point that everyone is striving to. its not the case. the technology makes it easier to do a lot of things better. feed paint better and faster, shoot easier, have a more consistent shot, put ball on ball. you look at the past 20 years and technology has grown leaps and bounds. other than stickfeeds, you are coming from oil cans and whale loaders to force feed loaders that can sense more things that you can imagine.

    you need to clarify your statement in what you want. you don't want people to dump paint(1 case, 1 kill) and that better barrels or even better paint is the key, well like i said, companies are not making money off of guns, they're making money off of paint. you can not force the issue down people's or even companies throats, just because you see that its different than what you perceive. the FS rounds are good, but the inability to feed them or even use a gun without a retrofitting it, makes it a dead end for a lot of people. as stated, you can't dump FS rounds in a Halo, or revy. you can't feed them into any gun. till that problem is solved, FS or a better more accurate paintball will be left as a novelty.

    so get your head out your ass and look at a bigger picture, other than what you painted.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    1. vertical feed. this is the dumbest thing since FWD. i know how we got it. it makes sense. we went from gravity feed, to agitated with gravity feed, to now almost everything is force feed. and during that transition, we wanted things to be backwards comparable with everything. but here is the fundamental truth: NO ONE SHOOTING AT 10+ BPS IS USING GRAVITY ANYMORE

    there is simply no need, to have vertical feed for most guns anymore. if you want to shoot spheres at high rates of fire, which most folks do, then there is no need for vertical feed.

    and there is every advantage, be it weight, weight disruption, capacity, speed, target profile etc etc etc etc etc to getting that damned hopper off the top of the gun.

    why not?

    the paintball player will reject it for being too weird.
    vert feed puts the weight over the middle of the gun giving a better balance. you do loose the ability of sighting over the top of the gun, but you also eliminate a potential break point of an elbow on right & left feed guns. Q loaders and Warpfeeds are a novelty that while they do work and can work well, they are regulated to second class because of size, expense and use.

    by eliminating the hopper you are advocating mag feed guns, but there is the problem that cost, use, and reliability.

    Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
    2. the paintball itself. its the shittiest ballistic shape ever. if i told someone outside of paintball that we shoot large, spherical, light balls at each other, and spend thousands of dollars to do it consistently and accurately, they would laugh me out of the room. its fucking stupid, sorry, it just is.

    there are SO MANY different ways to fundamentally solve the accuracy and range problems here. First strikes are just the tip of the iceberg, designed will too many compromises. why 68 cal? why 1:1 aspect ratio? to be backwards comparable with round balls! its stupid. starting from a blank sheet of paper, you could design SUCH A BETTER AMMUNITION ITS NOT EVEN FUNNY.

    why can't we do this?

    the paintball player would reject it, because it would mean throwing out 99% of paintball fields and strategy because those fields, and that strategy, was designed around a gun with terrible accuracy and range.
    money. ask Tom Kaye about how much it cost over a regular paintball compared to a perfect circle paintball? or look at the cost of a box of FS rounds compared to the same number of regular paintballs?

    if the you can get pin point accuracy of a FS round to a 3" circle over 200 yards, but yet feed them without a mag, then and only then will you get a paradigm shift in the way paintball is played.

    68 cal, is the same of 55mph or 6 beers in a pack. its a number that was determined a long time ago. but i believe that it stems from the cattle industry and tree marking that it grew into what we have today. .50 might be better or have more potential but i think the stigma that comes with it is too big a difference.

    as far as strategy, players will grow and learn IF there is something that takes hold. like going from semi to pump, tourney to rec and vice versa. you are closed to the point that people can't change. change is all through paintball. semi from pump, mech to electro, gravity loaders to force feed. change is in paintball, but you can never see it happen, till its already past you.

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